I have changed everything, still same ticking noise
#51
You can run it that way if it quiets down the noise.. I've got 3 bikes setup that way, 1 evo (SnS 640) , 2 tcs (SnS640, Woods 9B). The 9B does have a light rattle when hot, all valves, but it's the nature of the beast. They are 0.640 and 0.630 lift cams..
#52
I will try that, thanks a lot
#53
So that's the original lifters you installed with the cams, if your going to replace them, take some time to measure the lifter bores, you may be abled to fit some +.001" or maybe even .0015" oversize.
I had a similar issue with lifter noise, tried some Johnson-Hylift slow bleed down w/limiters, still made noise when hot, pulled them right out and saved them for later use. (those are now in my stock M8 bike with the limiters removed, which stopped the M8 cold start lifter rattle)
I carefully measured the lifter bores and was able to use the Fueling +.0015" short travel race series lifters, short travel is not absolutely necessary, but I like using them or limiters in other lifters with performance cams.
Fueling gives the size range the oversize lifters should measure. https://www.feulingparts.com/category/Lifters
I had to "prep" them as in my previous post, to drop them in without scratching the lifter bores, the lifter noise has not returned (yet, fingers crossed). Running S&S 585's cams.
Different brands of lifters measure different, I had some S&S and Johnsons standard size lifters on the bench and the S&S's where .001" smaller, with a maximum lifter to bore clearance of .0026", .001"can put it over, minimum is .0009", .0005" wouldn't scare me, the clearance grow with heat.
I always measure lifters and bores and match the largest lifters to the largest bores, every little bit helps and cost nothing.
I had a similar issue with lifter noise, tried some Johnson-Hylift slow bleed down w/limiters, still made noise when hot, pulled them right out and saved them for later use. (those are now in my stock M8 bike with the limiters removed, which stopped the M8 cold start lifter rattle)
I carefully measured the lifter bores and was able to use the Fueling +.0015" short travel race series lifters, short travel is not absolutely necessary, but I like using them or limiters in other lifters with performance cams.
Fueling gives the size range the oversize lifters should measure. https://www.feulingparts.com/category/Lifters
I had to "prep" them as in my previous post, to drop them in without scratching the lifter bores, the lifter noise has not returned (yet, fingers crossed). Running S&S 585's cams.
Different brands of lifters measure different, I had some S&S and Johnsons standard size lifters on the bench and the S&S's where .001" smaller, with a maximum lifter to bore clearance of .0026", .001"can put it over, minimum is .0009", .0005" wouldn't scare me, the clearance grow with heat.
I always measure lifters and bores and match the largest lifters to the largest bores, every little bit helps and cost nothing.
Still I wonder if tackling that issue is all that important. If excessive, yes but I would guess that it mainly has a big effect on low RPM oil pressure. So it would have to be the lifter rocking back and forth in the hole that causes the issue? Seems like you would hear that more at the lifter than the cylinder head..
When the motor has lifter bleed down issues, you hear it in the heads. The valve drops onto the seat hard making the tick. Going to limited travel lifters or simply adjusting off bottomed keep the collapse to a minimum and the lifter can recover quicker. I've found that this works real well for bikes with aggressive ramped cams or even simply ones with higher lift. The main issue seems to be the setdown ramps when the valve contacts the seat. If the lifter collapses enough to miss that part of the ramp, noise is heard..
#54
I chased a valve train noise for a while, that's what led me to looking at the lifter bores, with also checking rocker arms and shafts, indexing pins, piston jets, valve springs and guides, The noise was always more on the left side, mostly from the front exhaust.
I've used oversize indexing pins before, I made from hardened pin gauges, had to grind to shorten them, the lifters in my TC now needed the stock size pins.
My version of rocker lockers was to set screw the rocker shafts from the under side of the supports, used long set screws that can't fall out even if they backed off, also checked rocker arm bushings and end play.
The last time I had the engine down, I test the piston jet pop off pressures, stock jets opened at 13#, the S&S was around 8 if I remember correct, went with stock.
I also went with the S&S 585 spring set which reduced seat and over the nose pressures from what I had before, seat pressures around 135 now with over the nose at around 330, still turns up with no sign of float.
The lifer bore fit, piston jets and lighter valve springs was changed at the same time when I had the engine down for some crank work, between those three or a combo of, the tic is gone.
Baxters lifters prices are out of sight, $136 per lifter.
I've used oversize indexing pins before, I made from hardened pin gauges, had to grind to shorten them, the lifters in my TC now needed the stock size pins.
My version of rocker lockers was to set screw the rocker shafts from the under side of the supports, used long set screws that can't fall out even if they backed off, also checked rocker arm bushings and end play.
The last time I had the engine down, I test the piston jet pop off pressures, stock jets opened at 13#, the S&S was around 8 if I remember correct, went with stock.
I also went with the S&S 585 spring set which reduced seat and over the nose pressures from what I had before, seat pressures around 135 now with over the nose at around 330, still turns up with no sign of float.
The lifer bore fit, piston jets and lighter valve springs was changed at the same time when I had the engine down for some crank work, between those three or a combo of, the tic is gone.
Baxters lifters prices are out of sight, $136 per lifter.
Last edited by Schex; 05-25-2023 at 01:13 PM.
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Harley1004 (05-26-2023),
Max Headflow (05-25-2023)
#55
I too have spent time on a number of ticking issues. Some cams make more noise than others. I have used the 55G cams and found them to be pretty quiet. They were a lot quieter than the Crane H290s that they replaced when I got tired of changing the lifters. I did get new lifters From WFO Larry.. Generally I find SnS cams to be pretty quiet also.. SnS 625 was real quiet, maybe a little idle rattle with really hot.
My own criteria for a OK motor is that it will be quiet at idle cold but can tick a little at hot. Running down the road no tick.. Cam's like the Crane H290 would pass but as the lifters accumulated miles, i would eventually hear the tick, replace the lifters and continue on.. I would typically adjust the lifters 1 turn off of bottomed.
After talking to Larry, I've pretty much switched to using limiters and adjusting 1/4 turn off of bottomed. It definitely helps on the bigger cams, the 9B in particular.
I've tried the set screw idea in the rocker towers and did seem to quite the top end. Unfortunately in this case the I screwed up on rocker arm bushing fit / material and locked the rocker to the shafts.
Many claim that the pushrod hitting the upper tube causes some noise. I've taken apart motors for different reasons that were quiet and found the pushrods rubbing. Go figure.
In the OPs case, it took a pair of earbuds and turning up the volume real loud to hear the tick.. It sounds like one valve..
If the tick is always there, it may be a clearance issue with the different rocker covers. If it's more common warm, I'd suspect a weak lifters or a geometry problems that is causing one lifter to work harder. It may be that the lifter bore is loose and causing the issue. I don't really know.. Maybe damage to the rocker arm? I assume the rockers are stock. I've never seen a clearance issue with stock rockers. Rollers yes..
I do think that adjusting the lifters just off of bottomed is worth a try.. If it works, run it until it gets noisy then go with a new set of limited lifters..
My own criteria for a OK motor is that it will be quiet at idle cold but can tick a little at hot. Running down the road no tick.. Cam's like the Crane H290 would pass but as the lifters accumulated miles, i would eventually hear the tick, replace the lifters and continue on.. I would typically adjust the lifters 1 turn off of bottomed.
After talking to Larry, I've pretty much switched to using limiters and adjusting 1/4 turn off of bottomed. It definitely helps on the bigger cams, the 9B in particular.
I've tried the set screw idea in the rocker towers and did seem to quite the top end. Unfortunately in this case the I screwed up on rocker arm bushing fit / material and locked the rocker to the shafts.
Many claim that the pushrod hitting the upper tube causes some noise. I've taken apart motors for different reasons that were quiet and found the pushrods rubbing. Go figure.
In the OPs case, it took a pair of earbuds and turning up the volume real loud to hear the tick.. It sounds like one valve..
If the tick is always there, it may be a clearance issue with the different rocker covers. If it's more common warm, I'd suspect a weak lifters or a geometry problems that is causing one lifter to work harder. It may be that the lifter bore is loose and causing the issue. I don't really know.. Maybe damage to the rocker arm? I assume the rockers are stock. I've never seen a clearance issue with stock rockers. Rollers yes..
I do think that adjusting the lifters just off of bottomed is worth a try.. If it works, run it until it gets noisy then go with a new set of limited lifters..
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Schex (05-27-2023)
#56
I too have spent time on a number of ticking issues. Some cams make more noise than others. I have used the 55G cams and found them to be pretty quiet. They were a lot quieter than the Crane H290s that they replaced when I got tired of changing the lifters. I did get new lifters From WFO Larry.. Generally I find SnS cams to be pretty quiet also.. SnS 625 was real quiet, maybe a little idle rattle with really hot.
My own criteria for a OK motor is that it will be quiet at idle cold but can tick a little at hot. Running down the road no tick.. Cam's like the Crane H290 would pass but as the lifters accumulated miles, i would eventually hear the tick, replace the lifters and continue on.. I would typically adjust the lifters 1 turn off of bottomed.
After talking to Larry, I've pretty much switched to using limiters and adjusting 1/4 turn off of bottomed. It definitely helps on the bigger cams, the 9B in particular.
I've tried the set screw idea in the rocker towers and did seem to quite the top end. Unfortunately in this case the I screwed up on rocker arm bushing fit / material and locked the rocker to the shafts.
Many claim that the pushrod hitting the upper tube causes some noise. I've taken apart motors for different reasons that were quiet and found the pushrods rubbing. Go figure.
In the OPs case, it took a pair of earbuds and turning up the volume real loud to hear the tick.. It sounds like one valve..
If the tick is always there, it may be a clearance issue with the different rocker covers. If it's more common warm, I'd suspect a weak lifters or a geometry problems that is causing one lifter to work harder. It may be that the lifter bore is loose and causing the issue. I don't really know.. Maybe damage to the rocker arm? I assume the rockers are stock. I've never seen a clearance issue with stock rockers. Rollers yes..
I do think that adjusting the lifters just off of bottomed is worth a try.. If it works, run it until it gets noisy then go with a new set of limited lifters..
My own criteria for a OK motor is that it will be quiet at idle cold but can tick a little at hot. Running down the road no tick.. Cam's like the Crane H290 would pass but as the lifters accumulated miles, i would eventually hear the tick, replace the lifters and continue on.. I would typically adjust the lifters 1 turn off of bottomed.
After talking to Larry, I've pretty much switched to using limiters and adjusting 1/4 turn off of bottomed. It definitely helps on the bigger cams, the 9B in particular.
I've tried the set screw idea in the rocker towers and did seem to quite the top end. Unfortunately in this case the I screwed up on rocker arm bushing fit / material and locked the rocker to the shafts.
Many claim that the pushrod hitting the upper tube causes some noise. I've taken apart motors for different reasons that were quiet and found the pushrods rubbing. Go figure.
In the OPs case, it took a pair of earbuds and turning up the volume real loud to hear the tick.. It sounds like one valve..
If the tick is always there, it may be a clearance issue with the different rocker covers. If it's more common warm, I'd suspect a weak lifters or a geometry problems that is causing one lifter to work harder. It may be that the lifter bore is loose and causing the issue. I don't really know.. Maybe damage to the rocker arm? I assume the rockers are stock. I've never seen a clearance issue with stock rockers. Rollers yes..
I do think that adjusting the lifters just off of bottomed is worth a try.. If it works, run it until it gets noisy then go with a new set of limited lifters..
So I decided to adjust from the top but deeper, I went for 35 flats so almost 6 turns down. I think it became a bit more quiet but there is still a tapping noise when warm.
I had a conversation with a quite experienced engine builder here and he was pretty sure this is lash in the gear drive, with the noise amplified by my hard valve springs.
As far as I have found, there are no oversize gears available for the inner gears for 99-06 engines. Only the pinion gear is available in two steps of increasing size.
I do think that a bit loose gears is better than too tight, and as long as there is no damage from this noise maybe I will just try to live with a bit of tapping noise.
As for the valve springs being a bit too much for my cams (.650 vs .550) I will rather change to a higher lift cam than replacing the springs
Last edited by SwedishMeatball; 05-27-2023 at 07:26 AM.
#57
Please don’t feed
It would be interesting to see where you got the issue of cooking the oil from because it's likely not correct.. From "The Harley Davidson Century", page 298, they interviewed the HD engineers directly. They had issues with oil temps before production and were worried out having to add an oil cooler. The big issue was that the lifters were flowing too much oil to the top end, They cut the flow and the oil temps dropped.
AFAIK, there was alway pressure control valves in the oil jets. Good ol' Donny Peterson reported about the oil jets having check *****. I've not seen any production bulletins or complaints about oil issues on the 99 bikes. I'd bet part of the reason they were there was to keep some oil pressure to the lifters. They are at the end of the passage that feeds the lifters.
I referred to sumping as I thought that is what you thought might be part of issue with too much oil out of the piston jets.
The OP use an aftermarket pump with higher flow that I would assume on both sets of gerotors. More feed / more scavenge.
AFAIK, there was alway pressure control valves in the oil jets. Good ol' Donny Peterson reported about the oil jets having check *****. I've not seen any production bulletins or complaints about oil issues on the 99 bikes. I'd bet part of the reason they were there was to keep some oil pressure to the lifters. They are at the end of the passage that feeds the lifters.
I referred to sumping as I thought that is what you thought might be part of issue with too much oil out of the piston jets.
The OP use an aftermarket pump with higher flow that I would assume on both sets of gerotors. More feed / more scavenge.
#58
As far as I have found, there are no oversize gears available for the inner gears for 99-06 engines. Only the pinion gear is available in two steps of increasing size. I do think that a bit loose gears is better than too tight, and as long as there is no damage from this noise maybe I will just try to live with a bit of tapping noise. As for the valve springs being a bit too much for my cams (.650 vs .550) I will rather change to a higher lift cam than replacing the springs
You can change to a lighter springs regardless of lift and make it easier on the valve train. For normal use, heavy/stiff springs are not necessary. Drag racers use them to manage valve float which can be issue on the street under hard use but mostly they can be noisy slamming the valve back onto the seat. I have run .600 lift cams with OEM beehive springs with no issues and I don't baby the motor but I don't abuse it either. Do you know the rating of the valve springs you are running?
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Schex (05-27-2023)
#59
#60
I tried adjusting the lifters from the bottom but I don't think I did it right. I extended the push rod until it would not go deeper, and then backed off 1/4 turn. After 30 minutes the rod was still under pressure, I could not turn it with my finger. I tried backing out 1/4 turns more but no difference.
So I decided to adjust from the top but deeper, I went for 35 flats so almost 6 turns down. I think it became a bit more quiet but there is still a tapping noise when warm.
I had a conversation with a quite experienced engine builder here and he was pretty sure this is lash in the gear drive, with the noise amplified by my hard valve springs.
As far as I have found, there are no oversize gears available for the inner gears for 99-06 engines. Only the pinion gear is available in two steps of increasing size.
I do think that a bit loose gears is better than too tight, and as long as there is no damage from this noise maybe I will just try to live with a bit of tapping noise.
As for the valve springs being a bit too much for my cams (.650 vs .550) I will rather change to a higher lift cam than replacing the springs
So I decided to adjust from the top but deeper, I went for 35 flats so almost 6 turns down. I think it became a bit more quiet but there is still a tapping noise when warm.
I had a conversation with a quite experienced engine builder here and he was pretty sure this is lash in the gear drive, with the noise amplified by my hard valve springs.
As far as I have found, there are no oversize gears available for the inner gears for 99-06 engines. Only the pinion gear is available in two steps of increasing size.
I do think that a bit loose gears is better than too tight, and as long as there is no damage from this noise maybe I will just try to live with a bit of tapping noise.
As for the valve springs being a bit too much for my cams (.650 vs .550) I will rather change to a higher lift cam than replacing the springs
AS DLJ says you can still get oversized for early TCs. I still have some.. They used to be in the older Drag and bikers choice catalogs.. Bobby woods had double oversized but I seem to remember SnS started selling them also.
My introduction to loose inner gears and the noise was a set of heads and a wild things WT26 cam with 180 lb seat pressure springs. I seem to remember idle noise was more like a diesel.. Went W8s.. They were worse. I guess you could still get a single tick which is kind of what I heard...
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Harley1004 (05-27-2023)
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