Stage 1 download thoughts?
#21
11-12-2013, 06:13 AM
The last thing I want to address today is the subject of deceleration backfire, or “popping”. This topic generates a lot of concern from inexperienced riders, or even from experienced guys who just hate the noise, so lets take a look at what causes it. But first things first, lets define the issue:
Deceleration Backfire is caused by fuel burning in the exhaust manifold or header.
No ifs ands or buts, that’s what causes it. But the bigger question is how does gas get there in the first place, and that’s a bit more complicated. Generally, there are a variety of ways it gets there, and a variety of things that can make the backfiring worse. But there’s a kicker, and something you should understand before we go any farther:
A motor in perfect tune will exhibit deceleration backfiring.
Therefore, just because your motor is banging it up, doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong. And consequently:
Getting rid of the noise means de-tuning your motor.
Yup. If you’ve just got to eliminate that popping, you’ll have to accept the fact that your motor is going to be forced to run rich to do it, and that isn’t necessarily a good thing. So lets talk about what causes the problem.
Ok, so you’re riding along at some given rpm, and suddenly you decide to decelerate, and you reduce the amount of throttle. This causes an “overrun” – that is, the motors rpm is turning faster than the fuel provided can support, so the motor begins to spool down. This causes a couple of things to happen.
First, when you close the throttle, you are also closing the throttle plates. This reduces the air and fuel flowing into the motor, and increases the vacuum (lowers the pressure). This results in less air and fuel in the cylinder during the power stroke, which in turn results in a lower pressure in the combustion chamber. Remember I said earlier, that the A/F mix burns faster in proportion to the pressure applied? Well, when we reduce pressure this way, the mix burns slower. This results in two things happening.
1. The lower burning fuel generates less heat, and the cooling effect of the non-burning fuel tends to “quench” the flame front, or slow it down even further. Because the mix is burning much slower, the exhaust valve can open before all the fuel is consumed, and the unburnt fuel is ejected into the exhaust.
2. The engine designers, in order to promote smoother idling and better combustion, retard the spark when the throttle is shut, and this results in the mix being lit later.
So, now we end up with unburnt fuel in the exhaust, and burning fuel being ejected into the exhaust, and bang! Backfire. In addition, Manufacturers have added a device called a “programmed air injection valve” (Pair Valve) that actually injects some fresh air into the exhaust to help this process along – since fully burning the fuel results in cleaner exhaust. So the backfiring is not only a normal part of the engines operation, it’s also intentionally amplified by the manufacturer! Of course, normally, that massive bazooka pipe hanging on your bike hides most of the noise, but it’s there, even when you can’t hear it.
So the bottom line, is: That backfiring is perfectly normal and expected. If you’ve just got get rid of it, that’s up to you. You’re entitled to set your motor up the way you want, and your goals are your goals. But don’t refer to it as “fixing” the popping. Rather, the correct way to think of it is “de-tuning a bit to get rid of the popping”.
There are a few ways you can do this.
First, use the stock pipe. It will hide the sound, by absorbing it into mass, and masking it with the larger baffle space. Second, you can add more fuel during deceleration. This has the effect of raising the chamber pressure slightly, which burns a little more before the exhaust valve opens. Lastly, you can remove the Pair valve, which reduces the amount of available oxygen in the pipe to burn the unburnt fuel.
The above is one of many articles on this subject. My thanks to the original Author, I did not write this, but covers most of what I wanted to say.
Deceleration Backfire is caused by fuel burning in the exhaust manifold or header.
No ifs ands or buts, that’s what causes it. But the bigger question is how does gas get there in the first place, and that’s a bit more complicated. Generally, there are a variety of ways it gets there, and a variety of things that can make the backfiring worse. But there’s a kicker, and something you should understand before we go any farther:
A motor in perfect tune will exhibit deceleration backfiring.
Therefore, just because your motor is banging it up, doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong. And consequently:
Getting rid of the noise means de-tuning your motor.
Yup. If you’ve just got to eliminate that popping, you’ll have to accept the fact that your motor is going to be forced to run rich to do it, and that isn’t necessarily a good thing. So lets talk about what causes the problem.
Ok, so you’re riding along at some given rpm, and suddenly you decide to decelerate, and you reduce the amount of throttle. This causes an “overrun” – that is, the motors rpm is turning faster than the fuel provided can support, so the motor begins to spool down. This causes a couple of things to happen.
First, when you close the throttle, you are also closing the throttle plates. This reduces the air and fuel flowing into the motor, and increases the vacuum (lowers the pressure). This results in less air and fuel in the cylinder during the power stroke, which in turn results in a lower pressure in the combustion chamber. Remember I said earlier, that the A/F mix burns faster in proportion to the pressure applied? Well, when we reduce pressure this way, the mix burns slower. This results in two things happening.
1. The lower burning fuel generates less heat, and the cooling effect of the non-burning fuel tends to “quench” the flame front, or slow it down even further. Because the mix is burning much slower, the exhaust valve can open before all the fuel is consumed, and the unburnt fuel is ejected into the exhaust.
2. The engine designers, in order to promote smoother idling and better combustion, retard the spark when the throttle is shut, and this results in the mix being lit later.
So, now we end up with unburnt fuel in the exhaust, and burning fuel being ejected into the exhaust, and bang! Backfire. In addition, Manufacturers have added a device called a “programmed air injection valve” (Pair Valve) that actually injects some fresh air into the exhaust to help this process along – since fully burning the fuel results in cleaner exhaust. So the backfiring is not only a normal part of the engines operation, it’s also intentionally amplified by the manufacturer! Of course, normally, that massive bazooka pipe hanging on your bike hides most of the noise, but it’s there, even when you can’t hear it.
So the bottom line, is: That backfiring is perfectly normal and expected. If you’ve just got get rid of it, that’s up to you. You’re entitled to set your motor up the way you want, and your goals are your goals. But don’t refer to it as “fixing” the popping. Rather, the correct way to think of it is “de-tuning a bit to get rid of the popping”.
There are a few ways you can do this.
First, use the stock pipe. It will hide the sound, by absorbing it into mass, and masking it with the larger baffle space. Second, you can add more fuel during deceleration. This has the effect of raising the chamber pressure slightly, which burns a little more before the exhaust valve opens. Lastly, you can remove the Pair valve, which reduces the amount of available oxygen in the pipe to burn the unburnt fuel.
The above is one of many articles on this subject. My thanks to the original Author, I did not write this, but covers most of what I wanted to say.
#22
11-12-2013, 06:26 AM
Club Member
While the stage 1 might not be as dead on as an auto tune, Harley is getting pretty hard on other tuners being used. They make one, they want you to use theirs, and can make you as long as you are under warranty. The stage 1 in my 2012 made no real difference, but adding a SERT and a canned map from Harley for it was fine until I could get it on a dyno somewhere.
I know I know I know....use what you want. If I have a problem on a long trip I don't intend to stand there and argue with them over rather the aftermarket tuner I added is causing the problem. Harley made the bike, Harley made the tuner, Harley can fix the problem since I already paid for the ESP.
I know I know I know....use what you want. If I have a problem on a long trip I don't intend to stand there and argue with them over rather the aftermarket tuner I added is causing the problem. Harley made the bike, Harley made the tuner, Harley can fix the problem since I already paid for the ESP.
#23
11-12-2013, 06:42 AM
Yes I am familiar with the Micro Tuner from Fuel Moto. Have used both the PC V and the Power Vision purchased from FM with maps produced by Jamie. Bikes always ran pretty good once they were dialed in with the correct map values. I don't really want to mess with carrying a piggy back unit on the bike nor dial in a map anymore. I find myself being **** on getting it dialed in just right. I just want to run some good pipes, good breather and a bike that runs well without getting too complicated.
#24
11-12-2013, 06:43 AM
Tourer
I Had a power commander on my 06 SG an got it Dynoed ran very well on my 11 103 SG I have a Stage 1 Download With True Duals an a Heavy Breather .Did not want to mess with a Dyno this time an dont plan on any more upgrades.This Bike Runs Great no Problems our Rev Limiter gets Raised With The Download An For me I am Good to Go Bike runs Pretty Dam Good for a Bagger.
#25
11-12-2013, 06:53 AM
Road Master
You're kidding, right?
Or it could be that most with any REAL experience with the tuner understands the value for the end user is simply not there. Even a lot of HD wrenches don't care for the program either.
Once, just once I wish people like you would stay the hell away from this topic. I mean really...you're just looking foolish.
The cut 'n paste job (which, BTW, has lots of misleading and inaccurate statements) and your "bad tune, good tune" statement speaks volumes as to your serious lack of knowledge on tuning in general.
And no, I'm not going to debate this with you...I'm confident you'd only cut 'n paste some other dribble trying to pass it off as either your own or reflective of your superior understanding of it.
Or it could be that most with any REAL experience with the tuner understands the value for the end user is simply not there. Even a lot of HD wrenches don't care for the program either.
Once, just once I wish people like you would stay the hell away from this topic. I mean really...you're just looking foolish.
The cut 'n paste job (which, BTW, has lots of misleading and inaccurate statements) and your "bad tune, good tune" statement speaks volumes as to your serious lack of knowledge on tuning in general.
And no, I'm not going to debate this with you...I'm confident you'd only cut 'n paste some other dribble trying to pass it off as either your own or reflective of your superior understanding of it.
My bike decel popped from new, in standard trim.
Tuning is not difficult. It is simply a case of providing optimum air fuel ratio for a given number of factors such as engine speed, throttle position, engine load, ignition timing, altitude, air temperature, relative humidity and engine temperature.
Every race track I've ever been to for a race weekend is full of cars and bikes that pop on decel. They must all be out of tune........
I'm glad you're not going to debate this, because it saves me another lengthy reply.
Last edited by fatboy slim; 11-12-2013 at 07:00 AM.
#26
11-12-2013, 07:37 AM
My understanding is that under 'throttle by wire', decel popping is a function of the mapping, not an overload of rich/unused fuel in the exhaust manifold/header. The ecu is sensing the throttle position and decels the engine as per its map ( fuel air ratio), presumably leaning out quickly enough to avoid a backfile.
So depending on how harley maps the ecu, there really should not be any decel popping. I dont recall my my stock '14 103 cu in motor having any decel popping.
So depending on how harley maps the ecu, there really should not be any decel popping. I dont recall my my stock '14 103 cu in motor having any decel popping.
#27
11-13-2013, 12:16 AM
Decel pop is not a symptom of a bad tune. Tuning out the pop will give you a worse tune than a good tune with decel pop.
A stage 1 download is fine for a high flow filter and pipes.
I think most peoples' prejudice against the Harley pro tuner stems from their distrust of Harley mechanics and the fact that it costs more than an aftermarket tuner, with which they can **** up the fuelling for themselves, as many times as they want.
A stage 1 download is fine for a high flow filter and pipes.
I think most peoples' prejudice against the Harley pro tuner stems from their distrust of Harley mechanics and the fact that it costs more than an aftermarket tuner, with which they can **** up the fuelling for themselves, as many times as they want.
As far as dealerships not wanting other tuners, they sell SE stuff and it is good for business. The SEPST, PV, TTS all are very similar in their operation. The tables between them are basically the same and even use the same parameters for the same strategies. Main thing is make sure you use the correct strategy for the type bike and year. Some tuners have a few more features and adjustments.
#28
11-13-2013, 12:37 AM
The last thing I want to address today is the subject of deceleration backfire, or “popping”. This topic generates a lot of concern from inexperienced riders, or even from experienced guys who just hate the noise, so lets take a look at what causes it. But first things first, lets define the issue:
Deceleration Backfire is caused by fuel burning in the exhaust manifold or header.
No ifs ands or buts, that’s what causes it. But the bigger question is how does gas get there in the first place, and that’s a bit more complicated. Generally, there are a variety of ways it gets there, and a variety of things that can make the backfiring worse. But there’s a kicker, and something you should understand before we go any farther:
A motor in perfect tune will exhibit deceleration backfiring.
Therefore, just because your motor is banging it up, doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong. And consequently:
Getting rid of the noise means de-tuning your motor.
Yup. If you’ve just got to eliminate that popping, you’ll have to accept the fact that your motor is going to be forced to run rich to do it, and that isn’t necessarily a good thing. So lets talk about what causes the problem.
Ok, so you’re riding along at some given rpm, and suddenly you decide to decelerate, and you reduce the amount of throttle. This causes an “overrun” – that is, the motors rpm is turning faster than the fuel provided can support, so the motor begins to spool down. This causes a couple of things to happen.
First, when you close the throttle, you are also closing the throttle plates. This reduces the air and fuel flowing into the motor, and increases the vacuum (lowers the pressure). This results in less air and fuel in the cylinder during the power stroke, which in turn results in a lower pressure in the combustion chamber. Remember I said earlier, that the A/F mix burns faster in proportion to the pressure applied? Well, when we reduce pressure this way, the mix burns slower. This results in two things happening.
1. The lower burning fuel generates less heat, and the cooling effect of the non-burning fuel tends to “quench” the flame front, or slow it down even further. Because the mix is burning much slower, the exhaust valve can open before all the fuel is consumed, and the unburnt fuel is ejected into the exhaust.
2. The engine designers, in order to promote smoother idling and better combustion, retard the spark when the throttle is shut, and this results in the mix being lit later.
So, now we end up with unburnt fuel in the exhaust, and burning fuel being ejected into the exhaust, and bang! Backfire. In addition, Manufacturers have added a device called a “programmed air injection valve” (Pair Valve) that actually injects some fresh air into the exhaust to help this process along – since fully burning the fuel results in cleaner exhaust. So the backfiring is not only a normal part of the engines operation, it’s also intentionally amplified by the manufacturer! Of course, normally, that massive bazooka pipe hanging on your bike hides most of the noise, but it’s there, even when you can’t hear it.
So the bottom line, is: That backfiring is perfectly normal and expected. If you’ve just got get rid of it, that’s up to you. You’re entitled to set your motor up the way you want, and your goals are your goals. But don’t refer to it as “fixing” the popping. Rather, the correct way to think of it is “de-tuning a bit to get rid of the popping”.
There are a few ways you can do this.
First, use the stock pipe. It will hide the sound, by absorbing it into mass, and masking it with the larger baffle space. Second, you can add more fuel during deceleration. This has the effect of raising the chamber pressure slightly, which burns a little more before the exhaust valve opens. Lastly, you can remove the Pair valve, which reduces the amount of available oxygen in the pipe to burn the unburnt fuel.
The above is one of many articles on this subject. My thanks to the original Author, I did not write this, but covers most of what I wanted to say.
Deceleration Backfire is caused by fuel burning in the exhaust manifold or header.
No ifs ands or buts, that’s what causes it. But the bigger question is how does gas get there in the first place, and that’s a bit more complicated. Generally, there are a variety of ways it gets there, and a variety of things that can make the backfiring worse. But there’s a kicker, and something you should understand before we go any farther:
A motor in perfect tune will exhibit deceleration backfiring.
Therefore, just because your motor is banging it up, doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong. And consequently:
Getting rid of the noise means de-tuning your motor.
Yup. If you’ve just got to eliminate that popping, you’ll have to accept the fact that your motor is going to be forced to run rich to do it, and that isn’t necessarily a good thing. So lets talk about what causes the problem.
Ok, so you’re riding along at some given rpm, and suddenly you decide to decelerate, and you reduce the amount of throttle. This causes an “overrun” – that is, the motors rpm is turning faster than the fuel provided can support, so the motor begins to spool down. This causes a couple of things to happen.
First, when you close the throttle, you are also closing the throttle plates. This reduces the air and fuel flowing into the motor, and increases the vacuum (lowers the pressure). This results in less air and fuel in the cylinder during the power stroke, which in turn results in a lower pressure in the combustion chamber. Remember I said earlier, that the A/F mix burns faster in proportion to the pressure applied? Well, when we reduce pressure this way, the mix burns slower. This results in two things happening.
1. The lower burning fuel generates less heat, and the cooling effect of the non-burning fuel tends to “quench” the flame front, or slow it down even further. Because the mix is burning much slower, the exhaust valve can open before all the fuel is consumed, and the unburnt fuel is ejected into the exhaust.
2. The engine designers, in order to promote smoother idling and better combustion, retard the spark when the throttle is shut, and this results in the mix being lit later.
So, now we end up with unburnt fuel in the exhaust, and burning fuel being ejected into the exhaust, and bang! Backfire. In addition, Manufacturers have added a device called a “programmed air injection valve” (Pair Valve) that actually injects some fresh air into the exhaust to help this process along – since fully burning the fuel results in cleaner exhaust. So the backfiring is not only a normal part of the engines operation, it’s also intentionally amplified by the manufacturer! Of course, normally, that massive bazooka pipe hanging on your bike hides most of the noise, but it’s there, even when you can’t hear it.
So the bottom line, is: That backfiring is perfectly normal and expected. If you’ve just got get rid of it, that’s up to you. You’re entitled to set your motor up the way you want, and your goals are your goals. But don’t refer to it as “fixing” the popping. Rather, the correct way to think of it is “de-tuning a bit to get rid of the popping”.
There are a few ways you can do this.
First, use the stock pipe. It will hide the sound, by absorbing it into mass, and masking it with the larger baffle space. Second, you can add more fuel during deceleration. This has the effect of raising the chamber pressure slightly, which burns a little more before the exhaust valve opens. Lastly, you can remove the Pair valve, which reduces the amount of available oxygen in the pipe to burn the unburnt fuel.
The above is one of many articles on this subject. My thanks to the original Author, I did not write this, but covers most of what I wanted to say.
Too lean pops and jumps and can cause ping/detonation and too rich smokes and reduces power and will cause it not to idle right as it will smother down and vary the rpms.
A backfire is not a deceleration pop that I am describing.
#29
11-13-2013, 11:09 AM
Elite HDF Member
For those that have had a Harley stage 1 download done what are your thoughts? Was it worth it and did it actually make any difference? Did the bike run good without any decel pop, etc? Have had tuners and dynos in the past but wanting to try to keep things relatively simple on my 14' and was thinking about going this route. Thanks.
Last edited by barrygreen; 11-13-2013 at 05:15 PM.
#30
11-13-2013, 11:12 AM
Elite HDF Member
For those that have had a Harley stage 1 download done what are your thoughts? Was it worth it and did it actually make any difference? Did the bike run good without any decel pop, etc? Have had tuners and dynos in the past but wanting to try to keep things relatively simple on my 14' and was thinking about going this route. Thanks.