THINKING OF BUYING PCIII? NOTICE TO 06-07 READ THIS FIRST!
#31
02-21-2007, 03:36 PM
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RE: THINKING OF BUYING PCIII? NOTICE TO 06-07 READ THIS FIRST!
ORIGINAL: Gutman
Don't get me wrong I would share any advise I had with anyone to help out, and I agree that the PC is more owner friendly. I myself understand that you (or your bank) holds the title to your bike not me. That means you can do what you want. Shame on PC for not telling you their problems when you bought their product, not me. FLHT, as for the long term issues, I worked at a dealership for 15 years and have replaced many PC's and only a few ECM's.You ask that if something fails what are you going to plug in to get home? Your stock ECM still works, that means your tune is still working. Thank's for the info Gunrunner. At least you can have an opinion.
ORIGINAL: gunrunner
Well your right about the dealers and the SERT, 400+ for a link to reprogram your own stock ECM. hookup cable not included. 
And as for this being a Known issue? I never new it when I bought mine back in october, and niether did many others, heck till some of us figured out it was a power issue most everyone thought it was a map related problem. The true problem has only come to light in the past few days and is now documented in writing by Dynojets responce listed above.
ORIGINAL: Gutman
I don't understand half the people on this site. This has been a known problem in the industry, this is not breaking news. Whenever there is a post on this site PC vs. SERT everyone has their opinions and most are the SERT is too much and dealers are just out to steal your money. Now when everyone hears this they say "I will live with it?" If this problem was with the SERT and the MOCO said they were doing nothing about it, we would be on the 23rd page already. Like I have always said, you get what you pay for. The PowerCommander is not superior to the SERT, only less expensive and works OK. The long term affect is that it still uses consumer grade electronics (same as your kids PS3 or X-Box) and long term failures are high.
I don't understand half the people on this site. This has been a known problem in the industry, this is not breaking news. Whenever there is a post on this site PC vs. SERT everyone has their opinions and most are the SERT is too much and dealers are just out to steal your money. Now when everyone hears this they say "I will live with it?" If this problem was with the SERT and the MOCO said they were doing nothing about it, we would be on the 23rd page already. Like I have always said, you get what you pay for. The PowerCommander is not superior to the SERT, only less expensive and works OK. The long term affect is that it still uses consumer grade electronics (same as your kids PS3 or X-Box) and long term failures are high.
And as for this being a Known issue? I never new it when I bought mine back in october, and niether did many others, heck till some of us figured out it was a power issue most everyone thought it was a map related problem. The true problem has only come to light in the past few days and is now documented in writing by Dynojets responce listed above.) that generally what's been designed by the MOCO for the bike is probably best simply because it doesn't bypass, or "fool" the bike. That opinion doesn't work with everything (Stage 1 download) but it's held out over the years pretty well with most things. I've known a lot of people who have modified their bike in all sorts of crazy fashions to avoid spending $$ on MOCO goods only to eventually have to spend the $$ on MOCO goods anyway.
#32
02-21-2007, 03:45 PM
RE: THINKING OF BUYING PCIII? NOTICE TO 06-07 READ THIS FIRST!
ORIGINAL: FLHT
So if you do have an ECM fail, which is very possible, you have pissed away the 4 or 5 bills you spent on the SERT
ORIGINAL: gunrunner
Thats a easy answer, NO WAY! Afterall a SERT is not even a tangable object, it's just a key that allows the stock ecm to be reprogramed. If your sert modified stock ecm fails you loose the SERT as well forever as it can only be used once on a ECM. So once you use it to enter your stock ECM it is married to that ECM and can never be used on another.
ORIGINAL: FLHT
Gutman....Do we know for sure that long term failures are high. Another question I have SERT vs PCIII. If one or the other should fail on you out on the road somewhere, I know you can just unplug the PCIII and run on your ECM settings. Can you do this with the SERT also?
Gutman....Do we know for sure that long term failures are high. Another question I have SERT vs PCIII. If one or the other should fail on you out on the road somewhere, I know you can just unplug the PCIII and run on your ECM settings. Can you do this with the SERT also?
#33
02-21-2007, 03:53 PM
RE: THINKING OF BUYING PCIII? NOTICE TO 06-07 READ THIS FIRST!
FLHT, I have dealt with people that have had ecm failures and Harley even replaced their SERT. It is a case by case basis. I had a customer that bought a PCUSB from me, had the dealer dyno tune it. He then rode to Sturgis a year later, took the bike to Dr. Dyno who said the bike was running so lean that he was suprised it didn't burn itself up. The bike was only getting 20 MPG at the time (too rich). He dyno'd and said that we had the timing incorrect, and that he hardly ever changes from the PC timing chart (we do not either). I refunded his dyno charges at the dealership. 2 months later his PC went bad. 4 months to get Dynojet to replace/ refund his money. Now he has to start over. PC vs SERT. That is where I based MY opinion. Everyone else can chose their own path. He is now purchasing a SERT and having it dyno tuned. Who pissed away what?
#34
02-21-2007, 03:56 PM
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RE: THINKING OF BUYING PCIII? NOTICE TO 06-07 READ THIS FIRST!
ORIGINAL: Gutman
I don't understand half the people on this site. This has been a known problem in the industry, this is not breaking news. Whenever there is a post on this site PC vs. SERT everyone has their opinions and most are the SERT is too much and dealers are just out to steal your money. Now when everyone hears this they say "I will live with it?" If this problem was with the SERT and the MOCO said they were doing nothing about it, we would be on the 23rd page already. Like I have always said, you get what you pay for. The PowerCommander is not superior to the SERT, only less expensive and works OK. The long term affect is that it still uses consumer grade electronics (same as your kids PS3 or X-Box) and long term failures are high.
I don't understand half the people on this site. This has been a known problem in the industry, this is not breaking news. Whenever there is a post on this site PC vs. SERT everyone has their opinions and most are the SERT is too much and dealers are just out to steal your money. Now when everyone hears this they say "I will live with it?" If this problem was with the SERT and the MOCO said they were doing nothing about it, we would be on the 23rd page already. Like I have always said, you get what you pay for. The PowerCommander is not superior to the SERT, only less expensive and works OK. The long term affect is that it still uses consumer grade electronics (same as your kids PS3 or X-Box) and long term failures are high.
#35
02-21-2007, 04:02 PM
RE: THINKING OF BUYING PCIII? NOTICE TO 06-07 READ THIS FIRST!
I have the PCIII on my 06 SG and just hit the button like the officer said the PDs suggest - instant start. Is it hurting things.. doubtful. How many here turn the key in their car or truck to ON for 4 seconds before cranking? willing to bet very few. I mean it aint a "wait to start" light like in a diesel which is for glow-plugs in the cold, not the pump anyway.
I for one dont put much stock in HD warranty because of the hoops you have to jump through to keep. And I am not gonna be cornered to use their parts and mechs inorder to keep it. The PC3 allows me to revert back to stock which i did to get the 25 deg injectors and still the freedom to buy the parts I want.
Furthermore, I second what was said earlier - I work in software for fighter jets and it is fickle with restarts and headaches. i am shore that this ECM is simple and stout but how stout with shady-tree mechs monkeyin with the settings on their laptop. What does happen if the SERT decideds to crap 500 miles from home - you are SOL and out an ECM and SERT. I am monkeyin with a $300 independant part that can be unplugged and I still get home. I still feel I am the winner - just my opinion.
Great thing about this country - you can buy what you feel is best. Either product is good, I just prefer to spread my money around and wisely. Dont think the MOCO needs it all. The got $19K for the bike.
I for one dont put much stock in HD warranty because of the hoops you have to jump through to keep. And I am not gonna be cornered to use their parts and mechs inorder to keep it. The PC3 allows me to revert back to stock which i did to get the 25 deg injectors and still the freedom to buy the parts I want.
Furthermore, I second what was said earlier - I work in software for fighter jets and it is fickle with restarts and headaches. i am shore that this ECM is simple and stout but how stout with shady-tree mechs monkeyin with the settings on their laptop. What does happen if the SERT decideds to crap 500 miles from home - you are SOL and out an ECM and SERT. I am monkeyin with a $300 independant part that can be unplugged and I still get home. I still feel I am the winner - just my opinion.
Great thing about this country - you can buy what you feel is best. Either product is good, I just prefer to spread my money around and wisely. Dont think the MOCO needs it all. The got $19K for the bike.
#36
02-21-2007, 04:03 PM
RE: THINKING OF BUYING PCIII? NOTICE TO 06-07 READ THIS FIRST!
ORIGINAL: Gutman
FLHT, I have dealt with people that have had ecm failures and Harley even replaced their SERT. It is a case by case basis. I had a customer that bought a PCUSB from me, had the dealer dyno tune it. He then rode to Sturgis a year later, took the bike to Dr. Dyno who said the bike was running so lean that he was suprised it didn't burn itself up. The bike was only getting 20 MPG at the time (too rich). He dyno'd and said that we had the timing incorrect, and that he hardly ever changes from the PC timing chart (we do not either). I refunded his dyno charges at the dealership. 2 months later his PC went bad. 4 months to get Dynojet to replace/ refund his money. Now he has to start over. PC vs SERT. That is where I based MY opinion. Everyone else can chose their own path. He is now purchasing a SERT and having it dyno tuned. Who pissed away what?
FLHT, I have dealt with people that have had ecm failures and Harley even replaced their SERT. It is a case by case basis. I had a customer that bought a PCUSB from me, had the dealer dyno tune it. He then rode to Sturgis a year later, took the bike to Dr. Dyno who said the bike was running so lean that he was suprised it didn't burn itself up. The bike was only getting 20 MPG at the time (too rich). He dyno'd and said that we had the timing incorrect, and that he hardly ever changes from the PC timing chart (we do not either). I refunded his dyno charges at the dealership. 2 months later his PC went bad. 4 months to get Dynojet to replace/ refund his money. Now he has to start over. PC vs SERT. That is where I based MY opinion. Everyone else can chose their own path. He is now purchasing a SERT and having it dyno tuned. Who pissed away what?
#37
02-21-2007, 04:10 PM
RE: THINKING OF BUYING PCIII? NOTICE TO 06-07 READ THIS FIRST!
whoa, there is much mis-understanding about the fuel pump operation.
Fuel pumps in FI vehicles usually have some sort of safety mechanism to keep them from running on after a collision and thusly spewing raw fuel out and creating a fire hazard. The overwhelming majority of vehicles (Harley included) use an Oil Pressure sensor, with the logic that if the vehicle is involved in an accident, the engine will either die outright, or will die from fuel starvation if the fuel line is cut.
But if you do that, you have to have an arraingement to allow the pump to work without oil pressure in order to start it. Some vehicles energize the pump for a set amount of time upon turning the key, and some send power to the pump when the starter is engaged.
Harley uses the first way. you can absolutly start the bike as soon as you turn the key with no adverse affects. You do not need to let the fuel system 'pump-up' before starting. The fuel system is pressurized almost instantly when the pump starts. As a matter of fact, if you wait too long to start and lose fuel line pressure after the pump times out, the bike wont start under cranking until the oil pressure has come up enough to run the pump.
Now I am not sure if there is some Self-Test the ECM is doing during that time that prevents a quick start, but purely from the side of fuel pressure, there is no need to wait.
Tim
Fuel pumps in FI vehicles usually have some sort of safety mechanism to keep them from running on after a collision and thusly spewing raw fuel out and creating a fire hazard. The overwhelming majority of vehicles (Harley included) use an Oil Pressure sensor, with the logic that if the vehicle is involved in an accident, the engine will either die outright, or will die from fuel starvation if the fuel line is cut.
But if you do that, you have to have an arraingement to allow the pump to work without oil pressure in order to start it. Some vehicles energize the pump for a set amount of time upon turning the key, and some send power to the pump when the starter is engaged.
Harley uses the first way. you can absolutly start the bike as soon as you turn the key with no adverse affects. You do not need to let the fuel system 'pump-up' before starting. The fuel system is pressurized almost instantly when the pump starts. As a matter of fact, if you wait too long to start and lose fuel line pressure after the pump times out, the bike wont start under cranking until the oil pressure has come up enough to run the pump.
Now I am not sure if there is some Self-Test the ECM is doing during that time that prevents a quick start, but purely from the side of fuel pressure, there is no need to wait.
Tim
#38
02-21-2007, 04:24 PM
RE: THINKING OF BUYING PCIII? NOTICE TO 06-07 READ THIS FIRST!
ORIGINAL: Cowracer
whoa, there is much mis-understanding about the fuel pump operation.
Fuel pumps in FI vehicles usually have some sort of safety mechanism to keep them from running on after a collision and thusly spewing raw fuel out and creating a fire hazard. The overwhelming majority of vehicles (Harley included) use an Oil Pressure sensor, with the logic that if the vehicle is involved in an accident, the engine will either die outright, or will die from fuel starvation if the fuel line is cut.
But if you do that, you have to have an arraingement to allow the pump to work without oil pressure in order to start it. Some vehicles energize the pump for a set amount of time upon turning the key, and some send power to the pump when the starter is engaged.
Harley uses the first way. you can absolutly start the bike as soon as you turn the key with no adverse affects. You do not need to let the fuel system 'pump-up' before starting. The fuel system is pressurized almost instantly when the pump starts. As a matter of fact, if you wait too long to start and lose fuel line pressure after the pump times out, the bike wont start under cranking until the oil pressure has come up enough to run the pump.
Now I am not sure if there is some Self-Test the ECM is doing during that time that prevents a quick start, but purely from the side of fuel pressure, there is no need to wait.
Tim
whoa, there is much mis-understanding about the fuel pump operation.
Fuel pumps in FI vehicles usually have some sort of safety mechanism to keep them from running on after a collision and thusly spewing raw fuel out and creating a fire hazard. The overwhelming majority of vehicles (Harley included) use an Oil Pressure sensor, with the logic that if the vehicle is involved in an accident, the engine will either die outright, or will die from fuel starvation if the fuel line is cut.
But if you do that, you have to have an arraingement to allow the pump to work without oil pressure in order to start it. Some vehicles energize the pump for a set amount of time upon turning the key, and some send power to the pump when the starter is engaged.
Harley uses the first way. you can absolutly start the bike as soon as you turn the key with no adverse affects. You do not need to let the fuel system 'pump-up' before starting. The fuel system is pressurized almost instantly when the pump starts. As a matter of fact, if you wait too long to start and lose fuel line pressure after the pump times out, the bike wont start under cranking until the oil pressure has come up enough to run the pump.
Now I am not sure if there is some Self-Test the ECM is doing during that time that prevents a quick start, but purely from the side of fuel pressure, there is no need to wait.
Tim
#39
02-21-2007, 04:24 PM
Banned
RE: THINKING OF BUYING PCIII? NOTICE TO 06-07 READ THIS FIRST!
"Rumour is the 08's will have wide band 02 sensors and will autotune any combo ya might decide to run."
Yep, that's what I heard too...tuning devices will be a thing of the past! You will be able to turn an '08 into an instant monster with a few bolt ons. Already have a deposit on the first '08 CVO Street Glide to hit town.
Yep, that's what I heard too...tuning devices will be a thing of the past! You will be able to turn an '08 into an instant monster with a few bolt ons. Already have a deposit on the first '08 CVO Street Glide to hit town.
#40
02-21-2007, 04:43 PM
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