Built the best engine cooling system...again
#651
06-22-2012, 03:59 PM
It's very hard to quantify what you can expect due to all of the variables but I can reference the performance on my own bike with the tests I just finished up. Dynamic test at 55MPH thoroughly warmed up and normalized, measured via surface mount sensor, not an IR gun, at the rear cylinder
Current Fans 270F
New fans 255F
greater improvement at 45MPH
Current 260F
New 240F
I can't gurantee everyone will get these same results, but if you arent't happy with the results you get, I will refund your money upon return.
The static test is my least favorite, the dynamic test is a better representaion of how the system will perform, and what a user can expect under real operating conditions. Yes I developed this sytem to combat the stopped and slow moving situations that cause engine temps to spike, but it turned out so well that it provides significant cooling at moderate cruising speed. I disabled my oil cooler fan for this test, but my oil temp actually dropped from 220 to 205 while conduct the 55 MPH test on the new fans. Oh yeah, absolutely no ping with the new fans, where I had a very slight ping with the current version. I think we have a keeper!
Jason
Current Fans 270F
New fans 255F
greater improvement at 45MPH
Current 260F
New 240F
I can't gurantee everyone will get these same results, but if you arent't happy with the results you get, I will refund your money upon return.
The static test is my least favorite, the dynamic test is a better representaion of how the system will perform, and what a user can expect under real operating conditions. Yes I developed this sytem to combat the stopped and slow moving situations that cause engine temps to spike, but it turned out so well that it provides significant cooling at moderate cruising speed. I disabled my oil cooler fan for this test, but my oil temp actually dropped from 220 to 205 while conduct the 55 MPH test on the new fans. Oh yeah, absolutely no ping with the new fans, where I had a very slight ping with the current version. I think we have a keeper!
Jason
#652
06-22-2012, 04:35 PM
The new fans have 1 cfm more than the old fans, I don't say that to be a smart ***, it is accurate, but I'm going to have to decline any further discussion of the details of my fans. I've already provided way more information about my system than any other cooling fan manufacturer. I need to start being a little more cautious about revealing the details of my system, I hope everyone can understand that.
Respectfully
Jason
Respectfully
Jason
#653
06-22-2012, 05:10 PM
I find it very hard to believe that the EITMS would not activate regardless of oil temperature. Statements like this making extraordinary claims are all too common here in any discussion regarding engine cooling.
Here is a fact - Oil temperatures have very little effect on cylinder head temperatures (CHT).
During some of my previous testing, I started my bike from room temperature, i.e., CHT = 68 deg. and oil temp (OT) = 72 deg., and the EITMS activated at 12' 45" into the run at a CHT of 289.4 deg. The oil temperature when the EITMS activated was 131 deg.
Based on the results I saw in my testing I find your claim of no more EITMS activations once the oil cooler was installed to be a little skewed. My test has shown that the EITMS can and will activate at oil temperatures as low as 131 deg.
How is it that your EITMS does not activate when I'm certain your oil temp is significantly higher than 131 deg? Can you explain that?
#654
06-22-2012, 09:39 PM
Are you sure the EITMS is enabled?
I find it very hard to believe that the EITMS would not activate regardless of oil temperature. Statements like this making extraordinary claims are all too common here in any discussion regarding engine cooling.
Here is a fact - Oil temperatures have very little effect on cylinder head temperatures (CHT).
During some of my previous testing, I started my bike from room temperature, i.e., CHT = 68 deg. and oil temp (OT) = 72 deg., and the EITMS activated at 12' 45" into the run at a CHT of 289.4 deg. The oil temperature when the EITMS activated was 131 deg.
Based on the results I saw in my testing I find your claim of no more EITMS activations once the oil cooler was installed to be a little skewed. My test has shown that the EITMS can and will activate at oil temperatures as low as 131 deg.
How is it that your EITMS does not activate when I'm certain your oil temp is significantly higher than 131 deg? Can you explain that?
I find it very hard to believe that the EITMS would not activate regardless of oil temperature. Statements like this making extraordinary claims are all too common here in any discussion regarding engine cooling.
Here is a fact - Oil temperatures have very little effect on cylinder head temperatures (CHT).
During some of my previous testing, I started my bike from room temperature, i.e., CHT = 68 deg. and oil temp (OT) = 72 deg., and the EITMS activated at 12' 45" into the run at a CHT of 289.4 deg. The oil temperature when the EITMS activated was 131 deg.
Based on the results I saw in my testing I find your claim of no more EITMS activations once the oil cooler was installed to be a little skewed. My test has shown that the EITMS can and will activate at oil temperatures as low as 131 deg.
How is it that your EITMS does not activate when I'm certain your oil temp is significantly higher than 131 deg? Can you explain that?
Are you sure the EITMS is enabled?
When I bought the bike used it had a 103 stage II SE filter and Rhinehart TD’s Screamin eagle EFI race tuner model 32107-01H and a canned tune on it. The rear cylinder would shut down pretty quickly at red lights. The bike would really stumble upon take off when the rear cylinder had de activated, and I’d have to pull in the clutch and massage the throttle to get it moving without really bogging down. AFR was around 14.3-13.8/1 depending on RPM.
Had the bike dyno tuned bringing the AFR down to around 13.3-12.5/1 depending on RPM. The rear cylinder would shut down at red lights, although not as frequently or as fast.
I put the oilbud on and stand by my post. And yes, I am sure the EITMS is enabled.
I find it very hard to believe that the EITMS would not activate regardless of oil temperature
Believe what you want, I didn't say the EITMS wouldn't activate regardless of oil temperature, I said it hasn't activated since I installed the oilbud. Folks believe all different things that aren’t fact, their allowed, that what makes this country great.
Here is a fact - Oil temperatures have very little effect on cylinder head temperatures (CHT).
I’ll agree that oil temps have less effect on CHT than adequate airflow, very little effect is open to subjective interpretation. Do you mean oil temps effect CHT less than 1 degree, less than 10 degree, less than 100 degrees?
During some of my previous testing, I started my bike from room temperature, i.e., CHT = 68 deg. and oil temp (OT) = 72 deg., and the EITMS activated at 12' 45" into the run at a CHT of 289.4 deg. The oil temperature when the EITMS activated was 131 deg.
I’m certainly no rocket scientist, actually have no degree of any kind. That being said how did you start your bike from room temperature with a CHT= 68 deg. And OT= 72 deg.? What caused the OT to be higher than CHT at room temperature? Can you explain that? I’m not saying your making extraordinary claims or your claims are a little skewed, just really wondering how this could be. Heat rises, the temperature in a room would tend to be higher towards the ceiling than the floor, yet your CHT is lower than OT at room temperature and the oil pan is lower than the CH. Oil heater?
Based on the results I saw in my testing I find your claim of no more EITMS activations once the oil cooler was installed to be a little skewed. My test has shown that the EITMS can and will activate at oil temperatures as low as 131 deg.
I haven’t had the EITMS shut the rear cylinder down since I installed the oilbud. I don’t sit with my bike running sitting still for 12’ 45” either. Your welcome to if you want to. These are air cooled engines, if I’m sitting to long I’ll turn a corner, run the light in a break in the traffic or find another way to get moving. The oilbud isn’t going to make the bike stay cool idling for hours on end without airflow from being in motion like my 5.9 cummins will, but it doesn’t have 13 qts of oil, 28 quart water/antifreeze, a big ole fan and 1000 pound cast block either. The oilbud does have more mass and surface area than most oil coolers though and both its mass and surface area are advantages when trying to disapate heat. Think JAG 10 row vs JAG 6 row, which one is going to do a better job? The oilbud has kept the EITMS from activating in the same environment and operating style that I use when I’m riding that would activate it before.
How is it that your EITMS does not activate when I'm certain your oil temp is significantly higher than 131 deg? Can you explain that?
Probably not to your satisfaction, did I mention I don’t have a degree of any kind? I might suggest you review your testing proceedures and results. I’m only going to say that based on my oil temp gauge readings (installed when I put the oilbud on, didn’t have it before) I see readings of 180-200 degrees all the time. Admittedly the guage may or may not be accurate, and isn’t the easiest guage to read. BUT I have to think that almost every Harley Davidson V-twin 96-103 twin cam in service today achieves an OT of 131 deg. and higher and their not all running around on one cylinder. Maybe all of them but mine have the EITMS de –activated? I’m still not going to say your lying, making extraordinary claims, or your claims are a little scewed. If I was going to I’d do it in a PM.
Under what conditions did you conduct your test? Is your EITMS system functioning correctly? Do you have some crazy lean tune with some crazy timing on your bike?
Can you explain why you would expect my EITMS to activate at 131 deg?
Even though I don't let my bike run for 12" 45" sitting still, I'm still on Jasons list in the 4th batch even with the oil bud because sometimes you get stuck in traffic for longer than is comfortable for me and his fans make sense to me.
Last edited by Moneywoes; 06-22-2012 at 09:49 PM.
#655
06-22-2012, 11:39 PM
2black1s
Are you sure the EITMS is enabled?
When I bought the bike used it had a 103 stage II SE filter and Rhinehart TD’s Screamin eagle EFI race tuner model 32107-01H and a canned tune on it. The rear cylinder would shut down pretty quickly at red lights. The bike would really stumble upon take off when the rear cylinder had de activated, and I’d have to pull in the clutch and massage the throttle to get it moving without really bogging down. AFR was around 14.3-13.8/1 depending on RPM.
Had the bike dyno tuned bringing the AFR down to around 13.3-12.5/1 depending on RPM. The rear cylinder would shut down at red lights, although not as frequently or as fast.
I put the oilbud on and stand by my post. And yes, I am sure the EITMS is enabled.
I find it very hard to believe that the EITMS would not activate regardless of oil temperature
Believe what you want, I didn't say the EITMS wouldn't activate regardless of oil temperature, I said it hasn't activated since I installed the oilbud. Folks believe all different things that aren’t fact, their allowed, that what makes this country great.
Here is a fact - Oil temperatures have very little effect on cylinder head temperatures (CHT).
I’ll agree that oil temps have less effect on CHT than adequate airflow, very little effect is open to subjective interpretation. Do you mean oil temps effect CHT less than 1 degree, less than 10 degree, less than 100 degrees?
During some of my previous testing, I started my bike from room temperature, i.e., CHT = 68 deg. and oil temp (OT) = 72 deg., and the EITMS activated at 12' 45" into the run at a CHT of 289.4 deg. The oil temperature when the EITMS activated was 131 deg.
I’m certainly no rocket scientist, actually have no degree of any kind. That being said how did you start your bike from room temperature with a CHT= 68 deg. And OT= 72 deg.? What caused the OT to be higher than CHT at room temperature? Can you explain that? I’m not saying your making extraordinary claims or your claims are a little skewed, just really wondering how this could be. Heat rises, the temperature in a room would tend to be higher towards the ceiling than the floor, yet your CHT is lower than OT at room temperature and the oil pan is lower than the CH. Oil heater?
Based on the results I saw in my testing I find your claim of no more EITMS activations once the oil cooler was installed to be a little skewed. My test has shown that the EITMS can and will activate at oil temperatures as low as 131 deg.
I haven’t had the EITMS shut the rear cylinder down since I installed the oilbud. I don’t sit with my bike running sitting still for 12’ 45” either. Your welcome to if you want to. These are air cooled engines, if I’m sitting to long I’ll turn a corner, run the light in a break in the traffic or find another way to get moving. The oilbud isn’t going to make the bike stay cool idling for hours on end without airflow from being in motion like my 5.9 cummins will, but it doesn’t have 13 qts of oil, 28 quart water/antifreeze, a big ole fan and 1000 pound cast block either. The oilbud does have more mass and surface area than most oil coolers though and both its mass and surface area are advantages when trying to disapate heat. Think JAG 10 row vs JAG 6 row, which one is going to do a better job? The oilbud has kept the EITMS from activating in the same environment and operating style that I use when I’m riding that would activate it before.
How is it that your EITMS does not activate when I'm certain your oil temp is significantly higher than 131 deg? Can you explain that?
Probably not to your satisfaction, did I mention I don’t have a degree of any kind? I might suggest you review your testing proceedures and results. I’m only going to say that based on my oil temp gauge readings (installed when I put the oilbud on, didn’t have it before) I see readings of 180-200 degrees all the time. Admittedly the guage may or may not be accurate, and isn’t the easiest guage to read. BUT I have to think that almost every Harley Davidson V-twin 96-103 twin cam in service today achieves an OT of 131 deg. and higher and their not all running around on one cylinder. Maybe all of them but mine have the EITMS de –activated? I’m still not going to say your lying, making extraordinary claims, or your claims are a little scewed. If I was going to I’d do it in a PM.
Under what conditions did you conduct your test? Is your EITMS system functioning correctly? Do you have some crazy lean tune with some crazy timing on your bike?
Can you explain why you would expect my EITMS to activate at 131 deg?
Even though I don't let my bike run for 12" 45" sitting still, I'm still on Jasons list in the 4th batch even with the oil bud because sometimes you get stuck in traffic for longer than is comfortable for me and his fans make sense to me.
Are you sure the EITMS is enabled?
When I bought the bike used it had a 103 stage II SE filter and Rhinehart TD’s Screamin eagle EFI race tuner model 32107-01H and a canned tune on it. The rear cylinder would shut down pretty quickly at red lights. The bike would really stumble upon take off when the rear cylinder had de activated, and I’d have to pull in the clutch and massage the throttle to get it moving without really bogging down. AFR was around 14.3-13.8/1 depending on RPM.
Had the bike dyno tuned bringing the AFR down to around 13.3-12.5/1 depending on RPM. The rear cylinder would shut down at red lights, although not as frequently or as fast.
I put the oilbud on and stand by my post. And yes, I am sure the EITMS is enabled.
I find it very hard to believe that the EITMS would not activate regardless of oil temperature
Believe what you want, I didn't say the EITMS wouldn't activate regardless of oil temperature, I said it hasn't activated since I installed the oilbud. Folks believe all different things that aren’t fact, their allowed, that what makes this country great.
Here is a fact - Oil temperatures have very little effect on cylinder head temperatures (CHT).
I’ll agree that oil temps have less effect on CHT than adequate airflow, very little effect is open to subjective interpretation. Do you mean oil temps effect CHT less than 1 degree, less than 10 degree, less than 100 degrees?
During some of my previous testing, I started my bike from room temperature, i.e., CHT = 68 deg. and oil temp (OT) = 72 deg., and the EITMS activated at 12' 45" into the run at a CHT of 289.4 deg. The oil temperature when the EITMS activated was 131 deg.
I’m certainly no rocket scientist, actually have no degree of any kind. That being said how did you start your bike from room temperature with a CHT= 68 deg. And OT= 72 deg.? What caused the OT to be higher than CHT at room temperature? Can you explain that? I’m not saying your making extraordinary claims or your claims are a little skewed, just really wondering how this could be. Heat rises, the temperature in a room would tend to be higher towards the ceiling than the floor, yet your CHT is lower than OT at room temperature and the oil pan is lower than the CH. Oil heater?
Based on the results I saw in my testing I find your claim of no more EITMS activations once the oil cooler was installed to be a little skewed. My test has shown that the EITMS can and will activate at oil temperatures as low as 131 deg.
I haven’t had the EITMS shut the rear cylinder down since I installed the oilbud. I don’t sit with my bike running sitting still for 12’ 45” either. Your welcome to if you want to. These are air cooled engines, if I’m sitting to long I’ll turn a corner, run the light in a break in the traffic or find another way to get moving. The oilbud isn’t going to make the bike stay cool idling for hours on end without airflow from being in motion like my 5.9 cummins will, but it doesn’t have 13 qts of oil, 28 quart water/antifreeze, a big ole fan and 1000 pound cast block either. The oilbud does have more mass and surface area than most oil coolers though and both its mass and surface area are advantages when trying to disapate heat. Think JAG 10 row vs JAG 6 row, which one is going to do a better job? The oilbud has kept the EITMS from activating in the same environment and operating style that I use when I’m riding that would activate it before.
How is it that your EITMS does not activate when I'm certain your oil temp is significantly higher than 131 deg? Can you explain that?
Probably not to your satisfaction, did I mention I don’t have a degree of any kind? I might suggest you review your testing proceedures and results. I’m only going to say that based on my oil temp gauge readings (installed when I put the oilbud on, didn’t have it before) I see readings of 180-200 degrees all the time. Admittedly the guage may or may not be accurate, and isn’t the easiest guage to read. BUT I have to think that almost every Harley Davidson V-twin 96-103 twin cam in service today achieves an OT of 131 deg. and higher and their not all running around on one cylinder. Maybe all of them but mine have the EITMS de –activated? I’m still not going to say your lying, making extraordinary claims, or your claims are a little scewed. If I was going to I’d do it in a PM.
Under what conditions did you conduct your test? Is your EITMS system functioning correctly? Do you have some crazy lean tune with some crazy timing on your bike?
Can you explain why you would expect my EITMS to activate at 131 deg?
Even though I don't let my bike run for 12" 45" sitting still, I'm still on Jasons list in the 4th batch even with the oil bud because sometimes you get stuck in traffic for longer than is comfortable for me and his fans make sense to me.
After reading through your response here’s what I think is going on. You can tell me if I'm wrong. If your EITMS has not activated since installing the oil cooler, and you have confirmed the EITMS is enabled, then I’d suspect that you haven’t been exposed to the conditions that would activate the EITMS for a long enough period of time. Like you said, if you’re stuck in traffic, you’ll “… find another way to get moving”.
My point was that an oil cooler will not prevent the EITMS from engaging, even if the oil is at an unrealistically low temperature as in my example. In your original post I interpreted that you were implying that an oil cooler would prevent the CHT from reaching the threshold for EITMS engagement and that is simply not true. I apologize if I misinterpreted what you were saying.
The data I presented was collected during my previously conducted testing in 2011. I ran multiple tests on the effects of engine cooling fans, similar to Jason’s, and oil cooler fans to study and quantify their effects. I don’t expect that you’d allow your bike to sit at idle for 12-13 minutes on any regular basis. Either do I. But I did that in the course of my testing to gather data. In fact, I have engine and oil temperature data for periods up to 92 minutes at idle, not because I ever expect that to occur in the course of riding, but for the sake of gathering data and understanding how to control excessive temperatures.
I know I haven’t answered all of your questions, specifically those related to the conduct of my testing. I agree – maybe off-line is a better place for that. I simply wanted to voice my opinion on an oil cooler’s relationship to CHT based on my experience.
One final opinion of mine - getting yourself in line for one of Jason’s fans is a smart move.
Last edited by 2black1s; 06-23-2012 at 01:07 AM.
#657
06-23-2012, 08:01 AM
I suspect it is like anything else we purchase that gets improved upon over time... lol ...to include our Harleys themselves.....You can always purchase the improved version. 
My first generation works like a champ, has been proven over time and comes with a pretty damn good warranty....No need to upgrade at this point IMHO... Besides, who's to say the latest version fan will prove to be better long term?
My first generation works like a champ, has been proven over time and comes with a pretty damn good warranty....No need to upgrade at this point IMHO... Besides, who's to say the latest version fan will prove to be better long term?
#658
06-23-2012, 08:27 AM
Outstanding HDF Member
#659
06-23-2012, 08:38 AM
Banned
Current FCS owner
Since I announced the "new" fans, I have received several requests to exchange the systems I just shipped for the upcoming improved model. I cannot take back all the systems I just sold to exchange for the "new" fans. My warranty and guarantee is for the system as I sold it at that time, in its original and advertised state, if your only issue with the system is that you want the "new" fans because they are “better”, that doesn't qualify as grounds for a return. I apologize that I made an improvement after you purchased your system. As I've said before I want my customers happy so here is what I can do; at a less critical later time, when things slow down a little for me such as this coming winter, I can provide a fan exchange service for those who want to “upgrade”, I can do this at a very reasonable cost, but I just can't exchange all the fans for free on all the systems I just sold. The best I can do is to do the work at no cost to the customer, but I have to charge for the new fans. The fans are not intended to be user replaceable, the assembly of this system is not simple, and it is rather time intensive, so the system will have to be returned to me to install the “new” fans. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the original fans, they work quite well, just flip through the last few pages of rave reviews. If you must have the improved version, I'm sorry but you'll have to get back on the waiting list for the new version or wait until I can exchange your existing fans in your housing for the new ones. That said, I still have a few fans left to install in the next batch I get back from paint, maybe 3-4 systems, the bad news is they are the old fans, the good news is they will be ready to ship before the new fans. It’s Funny how everyone loved the original system until they found out about a new fan. I don't plan on another fan "upgrade" at least in the raw performance arena, I'm not so sure there is any more room to improve cooling, but if I do make another fan change in the future, I will not be doing any exchanges or upgrades at any expense to me. I really am sorry folks but this is the way of the world, doesn’t matter what product you are talking about, there will always be improvements and upgrades. I could have mitigated some of this by charging more for the new fans, and then people would have been satisfied with the cheaper older version even though it is a little less powerful, but the fans are about the same cost to me so I chose not to raise the price of the system. If you feel that I’m out of line on this subject, I would be happy to entertain your suggestions.
#660
06-23-2012, 08:50 AM
Intermediate