Gutting Cats - the real facts
#71
12-09-2011, 07:46 AM
Ultimate HDF Member
If others want to believe in snake oil, so be it. They THINK it runs better. And... the MOCO, Dynojet, Steve Cole, Doc, Steve, Jamie, etc are ALL dumber and stupid as compared to the king of kings... they Yahoos at XIEDville.
Train... NOBODY, except hopefully English Dude even knows what PID stands for without googling it and TRULY doesn't understand fuel control like FBRR does, right?
Just give it up... HDF is THE untechnical forum, remember? You can lead a horse to water, but old retired dudes, dentists, etc can NOT be made to drink.... just buy more chrome.
Nobody here has even SEEN a dyno. They do NOT even use their Butt Dynos... The STandard in this thread is the Wallet Dyno... I spent money so it must be good... HAHAHA!!!!
Train... NOBODY, except hopefully English Dude even knows what PID stands for without googling it and TRULY doesn't understand fuel control like FBRR does, right?
Just give it up... HDF is THE untechnical forum, remember? You can lead a horse to water, but old retired dudes, dentists, etc can NOT be made to drink.... just buy more chrome.
Nobody here has even SEEN a dyno. They do NOT even use their Butt Dynos... The STandard in this thread is the Wallet Dyno... I spent money so it must be good... HAHAHA!!!!
Thanks man.
#72
12-09-2011, 08:06 AM
No one knows for sure? Who are you kidding. I have seen this crosstalk in action. So have a LOT of other folks.
Fine... you don't know me. That's OK... but how about calling Doc in Florida, Jamie at fuelmoto or Steve at Fullsac and ask THEM. PM Lonewolf176 and ask HIM!
WTF, who gives a crap if someone used to tune carbs... this is NOT carbs... this is PID fuel control that is running in the MS range. For the English gentleman... removing the cat will allow pulses or fresh air to engage the WRONG O2 at the wrong time. This is a wobble fire engine, not a Vee nor a straight. All exhausts have multiple pulse waves. Between these pulses, with a common collector like on a stock bike or even a D&D 2-1.... the exhaust always inhales as well as exhales. When cylinder 1 is inhaling and cylinder 2 is ready to fire, cylinder 2's O2 is active and gets the 'breath of fresh air' that is does NOT need. The 135* of crank rotation without a firing event allows the free air 'room' to climb back up the pipe. A V8, etc with even fire... the successive pulses force the free air back out before it can be seen by O2s.
Same old same old. on 07s and 08... the y-pipe played havoc with closed loop, too. Some here MAY remember this... the Y allowed fresh air in to contaminate the O2s. This is the WHY they made the 09 pipe... fixed those issue (Best pipe for a stockish bike is an 09 pipe BTW).
It sounds like a way to 'richen' the bike right? Not so, the extra oxygen isn't always present for both cylinders at any given moment, so when the ECM commands more fuel... it expects more fuel to be seen, and when it commands less fuel it wants to see less... It IS PID control after all. When the ECM doesn't see what is expected... not the best running engine. Can you... English Dude... see this? You KNOW how PID works and it is the 'expected' results that make everything happy, right? It would be like a draft of air inside a unit using PID temp controls... what would happen if that draft wafted by the temp sensors... what would the controller do? Same thing here...
Folks HERE do not understand what fuel control really is... the bike does NOT go down the road all happy at the same throttle setting ... you guys think it is spraying the exact same fuel load when the throttle isn't moved. NOT so. PID involves feedback, and what the ECM does is spray minutely MORE and then minutely LESS fuel with each and every squirt of the injector... the O2s are supposed to 'see' this slight variation and it self adjusts in THIS way. Cross talking and manipulators inside of the circuitry are NOT helpful to this PID action.
One HAS to have each pipe semi separate from each other. The Fuelmoto pipes and the Fullsac pipes accomplish this.
If others want to believe in snake oil, so be it. They THINK it runs better. And... the MOCO, Dynojet, Steve Cole, Doc, Steve, Jamie, etc are ALL dumber and stupid as compared to the king of kings... they Yahoos at XIEDville.
Train... NOBODY, except hopefully English Dude even knows what PID stands for without googling it and TRULY doesn't understand fuel control like FBRR does, right?
Just give it up... HDF is THE untechnical forum, remember? You can lead a horse to water, but old retired dudes, dentists, etc can NOT be made to drink.... just buy more chrome.
Nobody here has even SEEN a dyno. They do NOT even use their Butt Dynos... The STandard in this thread is the Wallet Dyno... I spent money so it must be good... HAHAHA!!!!
Fine... you don't know me. That's OK... but how about calling Doc in Florida, Jamie at fuelmoto or Steve at Fullsac and ask THEM. PM Lonewolf176 and ask HIM!
WTF, who gives a crap if someone used to tune carbs... this is NOT carbs... this is PID fuel control that is running in the MS range. For the English gentleman... removing the cat will allow pulses or fresh air to engage the WRONG O2 at the wrong time. This is a wobble fire engine, not a Vee nor a straight. All exhausts have multiple pulse waves. Between these pulses, with a common collector like on a stock bike or even a D&D 2-1.... the exhaust always inhales as well as exhales. When cylinder 1 is inhaling and cylinder 2 is ready to fire, cylinder 2's O2 is active and gets the 'breath of fresh air' that is does NOT need. The 135* of crank rotation without a firing event allows the free air 'room' to climb back up the pipe. A V8, etc with even fire... the successive pulses force the free air back out before it can be seen by O2s.
Same old same old. on 07s and 08... the y-pipe played havoc with closed loop, too. Some here MAY remember this... the Y allowed fresh air in to contaminate the O2s. This is the WHY they made the 09 pipe... fixed those issue (Best pipe for a stockish bike is an 09 pipe BTW).
It sounds like a way to 'richen' the bike right? Not so, the extra oxygen isn't always present for both cylinders at any given moment, so when the ECM commands more fuel... it expects more fuel to be seen, and when it commands less fuel it wants to see less... It IS PID control after all. When the ECM doesn't see what is expected... not the best running engine. Can you... English Dude... see this? You KNOW how PID works and it is the 'expected' results that make everything happy, right? It would be like a draft of air inside a unit using PID temp controls... what would happen if that draft wafted by the temp sensors... what would the controller do? Same thing here...
Folks HERE do not understand what fuel control really is... the bike does NOT go down the road all happy at the same throttle setting ... you guys think it is spraying the exact same fuel load when the throttle isn't moved. NOT so. PID involves feedback, and what the ECM does is spray minutely MORE and then minutely LESS fuel with each and every squirt of the injector... the O2s are supposed to 'see' this slight variation and it self adjusts in THIS way. Cross talking and manipulators inside of the circuitry are NOT helpful to this PID action.
One HAS to have each pipe semi separate from each other. The Fuelmoto pipes and the Fullsac pipes accomplish this.
If others want to believe in snake oil, so be it. They THINK it runs better. And... the MOCO, Dynojet, Steve Cole, Doc, Steve, Jamie, etc are ALL dumber and stupid as compared to the king of kings... they Yahoos at XIEDville.
Train... NOBODY, except hopefully English Dude even knows what PID stands for without googling it and TRULY doesn't understand fuel control like FBRR does, right?
Just give it up... HDF is THE untechnical forum, remember? You can lead a horse to water, but old retired dudes, dentists, etc can NOT be made to drink.... just buy more chrome.
Nobody here has even SEEN a dyno. They do NOT even use their Butt Dynos... The STandard in this thread is the Wallet Dyno... I spent money so it must be good... HAHAHA!!!!
#73
12-09-2011, 08:28 AM
When you observe an exhaust line, the blue coloration will be located where the maximum heat occurs for a long period of time. Bikes that have no catalizer often have heat marks on the silencers and the very short pipes (typ. Triumph or Norton with Dunstalls) had the blue marks right after the bend coming out of the engine.
#74
12-09-2011, 08:29 AM
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! Well mf, i get from a to z just like you do a whole lot cheaper. My bike runs fine and i haven't spent all that big money just to boost my ego and have the guy's down at the local bar oooh and ahhh over it. Believe it or not, there are people who have a life besides spending every dime on a bike.
exactly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#75
12-09-2011, 08:36 AM
Extreme HDF Member
Well yesterday they picked up my bike to take it in and have a new exhaust and a stage 1 done. I have had a Ultra without the cat and my new 2012 has one. the 2012 is sooooo much warmer. The heat coming off that thing can get unbearable for the passenger. As far as HP, I really do not care. The 103 has all I need, but when redoing the exhaust I had the redo the EFI so I just did the stage 1. I will be able to give good ideas on the benefits of all of this next spring, but if it does nothing except remove the frying pan heat from the bike. I am fine with that.
#76
12-09-2011, 08:49 AM
1000's of people cut out remove get rid of the CATS one way or another.
Long as a bit of fuel is added one way or another the bikes do not run any leaner and they seem to run just fine. The 02 sensors are in front of the CATS so it would seem they really don't get input from them.
My CAts still in at 17K bike runs fine I still may remove them anyway.
I don't think the front and rear cyl are going to spend a lot of time cross talking about it over a beer.
I could market the all new bad *** cross talk filter 109.95 installs in seconds removes the cross talk design flaw in all 2010 and new Hd's.
Long as a bit of fuel is added one way or another the bikes do not run any leaner and they seem to run just fine. The 02 sensors are in front of the CATS so it would seem they really don't get input from them.
My CAts still in at 17K bike runs fine I still may remove them anyway.
I don't think the front and rear cyl are going to spend a lot of time cross talking about it over a beer.
I could market the all new bad *** cross talk filter 109.95 installs in seconds removes the cross talk design flaw in all 2010 and new Hd's.
Last edited by smitty901; 12-09-2011 at 09:00 AM.
#77
12-09-2011, 09:51 AM
Ultimate HDF Member
#78
12-09-2011, 10:44 AM
Ultimate HDF Member
I have the SEPST. I tuned to my liking, checked & rechecked. Then I removed the cat. took more readings etc. I like the way the bike runs and do not miss the heat from the cat (engine temp about the same).
For all the arguments pro and con about crosstalk I have yet to find any that point to an area of data from my data runs that will prove crosstalk beyond any doubt. It may well be there with and without a cat due to location of sensors.
For all the arguments pro and con about crosstalk I have yet to find any that point to an area of data from my data runs that will prove crosstalk beyond any doubt. It may well be there with and without a cat due to location of sensors.
#79
12-09-2011, 12:07 PM
Just because you live in a cooler climate, and don't feel the heat on your leg, doesn't change the fact that the cat is designed to generate heat (about 700') to burn off the after gas. That header pipe is hot, controlled by the O2 sensors, and that heat transmits to the engine. Heat will eventually damage parts.
I don't want to upset those who say leave the bike stock, it is designed to handle the heat......but....if you ask the engineers at HD how would they design the exhaust if it were not for the EPA...I willing to bet a cat would not be a part of the exhaust system.
To each their own.
I will add one more comment.....when I eliminated the cat by installing aftermarket headers.....I found it necessary to also install quieter mufflers. Stock mufflers might have worked fine, however, I found a good quality muffler with good sound and low noise level.
I don't want to upset those who say leave the bike stock, it is designed to handle the heat......but....if you ask the engineers at HD how would they design the exhaust if it were not for the EPA...I willing to bet a cat would not be a part of the exhaust system.
To each their own.I will add one more comment.....when I eliminated the cat by installing aftermarket headers.....I found it necessary to also install quieter mufflers. Stock mufflers might have worked fine, however, I found a good quality muffler with good sound and low noise level.
Last edited by Coach1; 12-09-2011 at 12:14 PM.
#80
12-09-2011, 12:16 PM
I don't want to upset those who say leave the bike stock, it is designed to handle the heat......but....if you ask the engineers at HD how would they design the exhaust if it were not for the EPA...I willing to bet a cat would not be a part of the exhaust system.
To each their own.So the issue is not whether they could do a better job without this constraint, the issue is - is THIS header better with or without the cat. And by better I mean taking all aspects in to consideration and supporting this with proper test data