Without having a pop at you specifically as there are dozens of cases on this forum, and building on my OP - this statement sums things up nicely.

If something is repeated often enough, more often than not wholly unsubstantiated, it becomes fact.

I am far too cynical for that, and as an engineer I have a simple philosophy, that being that if someone cannot explain something in terms that I understand it almost certainly means they don't understand it either!

So, exactly what is this cross talk phenomenon, and most importantly, how does the average punter recognise it.

I have not gutted my pipes and I have never had my bike on a dyno before so I am not in a position to answer this. I do work a lot with closed loop PID control systems in industrial applications and my understanding of cross talk is when 2 sensors in parallel systems interact with each other ad confuse the controller, resulting in an unstable control loop. I can see - kinda - how this could happen in this case but I am not convinced. This means either my understanding of this cross talk phenomenon is wrong, or I should be convinced or it is something which has been repeated often enough and hence become a fact.

 

What I see that has been repeated often enough is the bikes with cat removed with or without Xied's aren't exhibiting any issues. In fact most that have removed the cat are reporting the bike runs great and much cooler. I haven't read any posts with people that have removed cats that are having problems though there may be some.

I guess it doesn't mean that there isn't any cross talk. I don't know how you would prove there is or isnt. JMHO

 

I agree totally that there is not necessarily damage being done. I am also happy to accept the running temp claim as that is something which is readily noticed

 

I know I have read a few Posts where guys say, "The Heat" that the Cat produces does not bother them, or they didn't notice it. I'm sorry, but I really can't agree with that statement. I put 150-200 miles in the first week I had my new bike. It was hot here in NE Ohio then, but the Heat on the right side of my Bike was brutal. My GF even complained her right leg being too hot. One week and 200 miles old and I "Gutted" the Cat.

*No more Heat
*Throttle response improved
*Stock Mufflers even sounded decent

I rode it like that for a while and it was nice, I really enjoyed it. Later on I did an Air Cleaner, Slip On's and a Tuner.
It ROCK'S now

 

Enjoy the Kool-Aid folks. If any of you had bothered to do a simple data run on your biles, you'd know that the XIEDs were worthless, just as you'd know that the gutted head pipes were hurting your performance. If any of you bothered to learn how the Delphi ECM works in conjunction with the O2 sensors, you'd realize that the XIEDs were worthless. But far be it from me to try to argue engineering facts with your well-calibrated butt-dynos.

I'm sure the guys at Nightrider thank you for your business.

 

not everyone wants to spend several hundred dollars on a tuner. a cooler running bike is what most people are after. tuner $400, slip-ons $350, high flow a/c $200, and a dyno tune $3-500.,,and maybe 4-6 horsepower gain? that is after you gut the cat--you will need to do that before you go to a stage 1 or spend many $$ on new exhaust pipes!! where does it end folks? not everyone's life evolves around their harley. spend your money on rods and reels, guns and deer leases, vacations for your family, boats, casinos, etc..
gutting the cats and xieds are good enough for me. the wife says her ears do not ring like they did on the old bike with the loud pipes. loud pipes or loud horns will both save lives. leave you more money to spend on lemon pledge!!

 

Here's the dirty secret Dan.....You don't have to spend a dime. A stock Harley will run just fine. So fine that the factory warranties it for unlimited mileage for 24 months (47,000 miles for me).

But if you want to start playing with it, then spend your money wisely. It's documented fact that simply gutting the cat gains you no power. It's also documented that gutting the cat causes issues with the O2 sensors. No one, not even the people at Nightrider, has ever claimed that XIEDs do a thing to either improve performance or cool the engine. As a point of fact, given the way they work, they can't do what they claim to do because the stock O2 sensors lack the resolution to chop AFRs by any consistent percentage.

Removing the converter will reduce felt heat to the right foot at the cost of engine performance. Adding XIEDs will only enhance performance due to the lighter weight of the rider's wallet. Other than that, they're utterly worthless.

 

Wrong !! See below. On my 09 FXDC the XiEDs did wonders to lowering the heat and better performance. So impressed, I did it to my 2010 FLHTP. Keeping in mind only to enrich the closed loop as I did the Screamin' Eagle stage 1 for accurate AFV after pipes and SE Heavy Breather. The XiEDs reduce the voltage signal from the O2s so the ECM thinks the engine is lean so it will throw more fuel.


http://www.nightrider.com/parts/ied_product_line.htm

 

See what? They typed something on their website in order to sell their product. No dyno comparison, no temperature testing....Just words on a page that they typed in order to sell their product.

I've got this really cool bridge I'd like to see if you're interested in too....

 

Ah, but aren't yours just words on a page with no facts to back them up?