Frame neck welds
#22
#23
I would not think it's a big deal to fix for someone who knows what they are doing. However from my world a fix is first my job of planning it which to include getting rid of all the paint, v out to good base metal, visual inspect and sign off, weld repair and smoothing. Visual inspect for cracks/priosity and MT (magnetic particle dust inspection) of the area and margins. Probable a 1/2 days work for a welder and MT inspector. Would need to know exact type of material of the frame rails and head casting. Probably need a alignment inspection and for sure paint repair. Welder, inspector , alignment mechanic, painter and materials. About $2000-$2500 repair. Lucky us we build submarines and not Harleys'. One of my short coming here is I do not think unlike like us few places are qualified to frame repair. Bet Harley shop would not do it.
If it was mine and I had no recourse I would carry it stripped down to access it and have a qualified shop that does welding and MT look at it and repair it. Done correctly it will be as good as new. Done correctly welding is actually stronger than the base around it. No way to really judge by your pictures here. If that is what appears to be porosity it needs to be fixed. I thought it appeared to be paint bubbles were the powder coat melted and bubbled
If it was mine and I had no recourse I would carry it stripped down to access it and have a qualified shop that does welding and MT look at it and repair it. Done correctly it will be as good as new. Done correctly welding is actually stronger than the base around it. No way to really judge by your pictures here. If that is what appears to be porosity it needs to be fixed. I thought it appeared to be paint bubbles were the powder coat melted and bubbled
#24
No offence brother, but having the weld done with mag particle is overkill in my mind. Id just grind it down smooth, inspect whats there, is theres porosity at the base, grind it out and have someone re-weld, I like the suggestion of finding someone with a TIG machine. Very easy control, and no sparks to damage anything in the immediate area. TIG process will surely draw out any porosity, MIG can just cover it up. Grind the new weld smooth, paint and your Hunky Dory IMO.
If it was a lifting lug, on the side of a 60,000 pound steel vessel, Id recommend having it inspected with Mag Particle. Hell if your really horny about it, once its ground smooth, do a quick Dye Pen, to ensure all porosity has been removed.
( dye penetrant is a simple quick weld inspection incase the OP is not familiar, involves 3 spray bombs, one with cleaner, one dye, and one developer. The area is cleaned, sprayed with dye, wiped clean again, then sprayed with the developer (like white paint but essentially dust) then if the dye has penetrated any weld defects, it will then show through the white developer)
If it was a lifting lug, on the side of a 60,000 pound steel vessel, Id recommend having it inspected with Mag Particle. Hell if your really horny about it, once its ground smooth, do a quick Dye Pen, to ensure all porosity has been removed.
( dye penetrant is a simple quick weld inspection incase the OP is not familiar, involves 3 spray bombs, one with cleaner, one dye, and one developer. The area is cleaned, sprayed with dye, wiped clean again, then sprayed with the developer (like white paint but essentially dust) then if the dye has penetrated any weld defects, it will then show through the white developer)
#25
Do not disagree with what you are saying Kenny. My concern was with the casting having a crack from wrong weld material. Probably a visual would be good enough. Actual from my experience I doubt few bare welds on a Harley would pass any dye penetrant test especially in the casting areas. Also only real reason I called out for a place to check it that does MT would be they should be more then qualified to weld structure.
#26
Thanks guys. I will certainly make the time over the winter to have a couple places look at it.
The actual story (as stupid as it is) is that last genius that owned the bike was too cheap to buy neck covers so he improvised and tacked his own "custom" ones in place.
I'm by no means a welder or metallurgist but, to me, it sounds like a bad idea- welding on a bike frame when you dont know what youre doing!
I've seen pics to verify the story. That's why I said its not actually a repair- that it was more like just weld added to the surface (as compared to weld fusing two pieces of separate or cracked steel together)
- not sure how much that changes things if at all but that's the situation
The actual story (as stupid as it is) is that last genius that owned the bike was too cheap to buy neck covers so he improvised and tacked his own "custom" ones in place.
I'm by no means a welder or metallurgist but, to me, it sounds like a bad idea- welding on a bike frame when you dont know what youre doing!
I've seen pics to verify the story. That's why I said its not actually a repair- that it was more like just weld added to the surface (as compared to weld fusing two pieces of separate or cracked steel together)
- not sure how much that changes things if at all but that's the situation
#27
Thanks guys. I will certainly make the time over the winter to have a couple places look at it.
The actual story (as stupid as it is) is that last genius that owned the bike was too cheap to buy neck covers so he improvised and tacked his own "custom" ones in place.
I'm by no means a welder or metallurgist but, to me, it sounds like a bad idea- welding on a bike frame when you dont know what youre doing!
I've seen pics to verify the story. That's why I said its not actually a repair- that it was more like just weld added to the surface (as compared to weld fusing two pieces of separate or cracked steel together)
- not sure how much that changes things if at all but that's the situation
The actual story (as stupid as it is) is that last genius that owned the bike was too cheap to buy neck covers so he improvised and tacked his own "custom" ones in place.
I'm by no means a welder or metallurgist but, to me, it sounds like a bad idea- welding on a bike frame when you dont know what youre doing!
I've seen pics to verify the story. That's why I said its not actually a repair- that it was more like just weld added to the surface (as compared to weld fusing two pieces of separate or cracked steel together)
- not sure how much that changes things if at all but that's the situation
#28
find another harley to park near and study the placement of the welds. that does appear to be something that was done at a different time than when it was welded from the factory. harley welds are notorious for being ugly, but they do hold up well. in a perfect world, they would be heli arc welded or at least smooth mig welds, or even ground smoothed with a disc before the factory paints them.
#29
That is a very reasonable explanation as to why your frame is in it's current condition. As far as the NDT testing sugested I have to disagree with any requirements to go that far. Submarines and aircraft carriers are made of some pretty exotic steels for most of thier structural envelope. However there are millions af welds that do not have the properties that require testing beyond a visual. In this cas it would be marked RW (re weld). Gone are the days of the casted components of the HD frames and they have been replaced with formed sheet metal that is more than likely cold rollled mild steel. This is only my opinion but I do not see any need for high strength steel in these areas. No pre or post heating of these areas should be required for welding and the cooling process is usually when the welds and heat affected zones are prone to cracking in the high carbon steels.
It does look like there was some melt through in the one picture that I may have some concern over but I still would not stop riding it or tear it down to the bare frame to get it fixed. IMO
In 1980 I cut,fit and welded steel plate in the neck area of my 1979 low rider because everybody I new that filled the casting up with BONDO had cracking through thier new paint within a month of riding. I re painted the frame due to a color change after 10 years (1990) and did nt have any structural failures then and do not today.
A mediocre TIG welder should be able to re fuse the concerned area in less than an hour if you have the bike ready to weld when you get it to him. Don.t let or make the welder disconect the battery. You should do that PITA job for him. I would unplug the ECM while you are at it as there may be a high frequency start voltage in the TIG process. He should also connect his ground to a floorboard mounting bracket or another part of the main frame inside of any sections isolated by a set of bearings i.e. swing arm or front end. He should know that but it doesn't hurt to remind them.
It does look like there was some melt through in the one picture that I may have some concern over but I still would not stop riding it or tear it down to the bare frame to get it fixed. IMO
In 1980 I cut,fit and welded steel plate in the neck area of my 1979 low rider because everybody I new that filled the casting up with BONDO had cracking through thier new paint within a month of riding. I re painted the frame due to a color change after 10 years (1990) and did nt have any structural failures then and do not today.
A mediocre TIG welder should be able to re fuse the concerned area in less than an hour if you have the bike ready to weld when you get it to him. Don.t let or make the welder disconect the battery. You should do that PITA job for him. I would unplug the ECM while you are at it as there may be a high frequency start voltage in the TIG process. He should also connect his ground to a floorboard mounting bracket or another part of the main frame inside of any sections isolated by a set of bearings i.e. swing arm or front end. He should know that but it doesn't hurt to remind them.
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