Tick, Tick, Tick: Shim Rocker Arms on 2011 103". Yay or Nay?
#21
05-15-2011 | 07:10 PM
Road Master
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 997
Likes: 3
From: Charlotte, N.C.
Oh yeah, no problem machining and taping. The machinist said he has been seeing quite a few TC96 heads with pulled threads. Made me a little nervous but he didn't think it was a big deal. Yeah the 255 works well in the 96. My buddies stock CVO 110 barely hangs on to my 96. The 103 should be just a bit more of the same.
#23
05-17-2011 | 05:30 AM
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 2
From: Australia
Originally Posted by Sidecar Cycles
Just avoid the travel limiters, unless your running synthetic!
A side effect of travel limiters... they will prevent your lifters from bleeding down, important... assuming your using synthetic! Synthetic, as great as it is at protecting surfaces and resisting temps... is useless in it's present state. Applied to a V-twin "air cooled engine" its too thin.
When an engine is shut off there's a good chance one or more cam lobes will be opening a valve or two. The pressure from that valves spring (especially in a high lift application where the springs are much stronger) will exert pressure via the rocker arm and push rod, effectively squeezing out the oil.
Try this, next oil change, swap back to fossil oil... After the oil change do the same thing, if you can't hear a difference... make an appointment with a hearing specialist! I am quite confident you'll hear the difference. I do this at least once a week at work, amazes me every time!!!
Food for thought:
If we had radiators on our bikes (let's hope it never comes down to that) it wouldn't have been so bad when the EPA reg's went into effect, driving AFR numbers up to 14.7 to 1. The limited cooling benefit of running Synthetic just isn't worth the trade off. So...
Did you know...
The closed loop system on your bike only operates (or controls air/fuel ratios) from idle to 3,000 rpm. That's where EPA tests bikes, so getting a simple flash with your new air cleaner and pipes (although better than nothing), is merely giving you a higher rev limit and slightly richer fuel mixture above 3,000 rpm, because the O2's are still in play keeping your AFR up around 14.7 to 1.
Just avoid the travel limiters, unless your running synthetic!
A side effect of travel limiters... they will prevent your lifters from bleeding down, important... assuming your using synthetic! Synthetic, as great as it is at protecting surfaces and resisting temps... is useless in it's present state. Applied to a V-twin "air cooled engine" its too thin.
When an engine is shut off there's a good chance one or more cam lobes will be opening a valve or two. The pressure from that valves spring (especially in a high lift application where the springs are much stronger) will exert pressure via the rocker arm and push rod, effectively squeezing out the oil.
Try this, next oil change, swap back to fossil oil... After the oil change do the same thing, if you can't hear a difference... make an appointment with a hearing specialist! I am quite confident you'll hear the difference. I do this at least once a week at work, amazes me every time!!!
Food for thought:
If we had radiators on our bikes (let's hope it never comes down to that) it wouldn't have been so bad when the EPA reg's went into effect, driving AFR numbers up to 14.7 to 1. The limited cooling benefit of running Synthetic just isn't worth the trade off. So...
Did you know...
The closed loop system on your bike only operates (or controls air/fuel ratios) from idle to 3,000 rpm. That's where EPA tests bikes, so getting a simple flash with your new air cleaner and pipes (although better than nothing), is merely giving you a higher rev limit and slightly richer fuel mixture above 3,000 rpm, because the O2's are still in play keeping your AFR up around 14.7 to 1.
The ticking caused by lifter bleed down goes away in a few seconds, ongoing ticking is totally different and the 2 are usually totally unrelated.
Ticking on big twins is caused by the valve train geometry (which is less than optimal on the twin cam, and terrible on the evo) combined with manufacturing tolerances on the rocker arms. Thats why some bikes tick louder than others, its a tolerance (and therefore probability) thing.
My old Evo had 80,000 miles and ticked like crazy. The first 10 mins after an oil change (using fossil oil) it was much quieter. The oil properties change during the first few hours of use, and this is more so with fossil oil. The ticking came back really quick. The effect you report goes away very quickly.
Syn oils arent used because they cool better, they are used because they maintain their properties for longer and over a wider range of temperature, resisting breakdown. Dunno who told you they cool better.
As for the 14.7 to 1 thing, well, my bike runs 14.7:1 when in closed loop and even with 124" still doesnt run hot to me. The ETMS kicks in on really hot days, but its pretty rare.
#24
05-17-2011 | 05:52 AM
Road Master
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 997
Likes: 3
From: Charlotte, N.C.
Originally Posted by Sidecar Cycles
Just avoid the travel limiters, unless your running synthetic!
drspencer,
Please explain.
Thanks
A side effect of travel limiters... they will prevent your lifters from bleeding down, important... assuming your using synthetic! Synthetic, as great as it is at protecting surfaces and resisting temps... is useless in it's present state. Applied to a V-twin "air cooled engine" its too thin.
When an engine is shut off there's a good chance one or more cam lobes will be opening a valve or two. The pressure from that valves spring (especially in a high lift application where the springs are much stronger) will exert pressure via the rocker arm and push rod, effectively squeezing out the oil. I've seen it happen in as little time as it takes to do an oil change, customer's bike comes in and an hour later, when fired up to fill the new oil filter... clack, clack, clack till the lifter or lifters fill up!
Try this, next oil change, swap back to fossil oil... if you've been told you can't, find a new mechanic! Only thing you need to make sure of is to change the oil filter at the same time. Before you do, run the bike while a friend cups his hands over the exhaust (eliminates the noise so you can get a good listen to the engine. After the oil change do the same thing, if you can't hear a difference... make an appointment with a hearing specialist! I am quite confident you'll hear the difference. I do this at least once a week at work, amazes me every time!!!
What needs to be said at this point is that Synthetic is great at protecting moving parts, but nothing protects parts that are colliding. Oil too thin will not properly pump a lifter up and keep it there, so your push rods are slapping off the top of the lifter and the bottom of the rocker arms and possibly even the valve stem... hence the noise. Yes, both oils are rated as 20W50... but trust me, Synthetic does not work the same as fossil oil. Red Line has come out with a new 20W60, but I have not had an opportunity to put any in a "die hard synthetics" customer's bike (I will not use synthetic in my bike).
Food for thought:
If we had radiators on our bikes (let's hope it never comes down to that) it wouldn't have been so bad when the EPA reg's went into effect, driving AFR numbers up to 14.7 to 1. The limited cooling benefit of running Synthetic just isn't worth the trade off. So... bite the bullet and get your bike re-mapped, whether you use tuner software, a Power Commander, Thunder Max... etc, it doesn't matter, because leaving it alone is not an option.
Did you know...
The closed loop system on your bike only operates (or controls air/fuel ratios) from idle to 3,000 rpm. That's where EPA tests bikes, so getting a simple flash with your new air cleaner and pipes (although better than nothing), is merely giving you a higher rev limit and slightly richer fuel mixture above 3,000 rpm, because the O2's are still in play keeping your AFR up around 14.7 to 1.
Just avoid the travel limiters, unless your running synthetic!
drspencer,
Please explain.
Thanks
A side effect of travel limiters... they will prevent your lifters from bleeding down, important... assuming your using synthetic! Synthetic, as great as it is at protecting surfaces and resisting temps... is useless in it's present state. Applied to a V-twin "air cooled engine" its too thin.
When an engine is shut off there's a good chance one or more cam lobes will be opening a valve or two. The pressure from that valves spring (especially in a high lift application where the springs are much stronger) will exert pressure via the rocker arm and push rod, effectively squeezing out the oil. I've seen it happen in as little time as it takes to do an oil change, customer's bike comes in and an hour later, when fired up to fill the new oil filter... clack, clack, clack till the lifter or lifters fill up!
Try this, next oil change, swap back to fossil oil... if you've been told you can't, find a new mechanic! Only thing you need to make sure of is to change the oil filter at the same time. Before you do, run the bike while a friend cups his hands over the exhaust (eliminates the noise so you can get a good listen to the engine. After the oil change do the same thing, if you can't hear a difference... make an appointment with a hearing specialist! I am quite confident you'll hear the difference. I do this at least once a week at work, amazes me every time!!!
What needs to be said at this point is that Synthetic is great at protecting moving parts, but nothing protects parts that are colliding. Oil too thin will not properly pump a lifter up and keep it there, so your push rods are slapping off the top of the lifter and the bottom of the rocker arms and possibly even the valve stem... hence the noise. Yes, both oils are rated as 20W50... but trust me, Synthetic does not work the same as fossil oil. Red Line has come out with a new 20W60, but I have not had an opportunity to put any in a "die hard synthetics" customer's bike (I will not use synthetic in my bike).
Food for thought:
If we had radiators on our bikes (let's hope it never comes down to that) it wouldn't have been so bad when the EPA reg's went into effect, driving AFR numbers up to 14.7 to 1. The limited cooling benefit of running Synthetic just isn't worth the trade off. So... bite the bullet and get your bike re-mapped, whether you use tuner software, a Power Commander, Thunder Max... etc, it doesn't matter, because leaving it alone is not an option.
Did you know...
The closed loop system on your bike only operates (or controls air/fuel ratios) from idle to 3,000 rpm. That's where EPA tests bikes, so getting a simple flash with your new air cleaner and pipes (although better than nothing), is merely giving you a higher rev limit and slightly richer fuel mixture above 3,000 rpm, because the O2's are still in play keeping your AFR up around 14.7 to 1.
You do know exactly what you are talking about, however you have overlooked a few things. Under the current conditions of a very hot running stock engine, may sound funny but I always run dino oil because of its stickyness and thickness. You forgot to mention that not only can synthetic oil cool better it can handle higher temps overall. Synthetic oil when married with a retune and a oil cooler is a perfect setup as the higher temps are not reached that often thinning out the oil so much the same thinning effect will occur with dino oil. Also most synthetic oils have a higher ZDDP content to protect the moving parts if they do bang together a bit. I have seen the internals of many engines and the ones that were run on synthetics were cleaner(except for the combustion chamber) and had less wear no matter if it was watercooled or aircooled. The Redline oils are the best IMO and the 20w-60 works best for the aircooled V-twins. I would not use this weight oil blow 50 degrees F it is too thick. I have had great sucess running 10w-40 in 40 degrees F weather.
#25
05-18-2011 | 01:39 AM
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 2
From: Australia
"Lifter bleed down with both oils, yes... mind you I have never come across it with a bike running dino oil, not yet! But bikes running sync, more than a dozen times and I try to make a habit of skating on the oil changes around the shop.
Indeed the clacking (not ticking) goes away, its the endless ticking afterward that is troublesome. What I am saying is that sync is too thin, runny... and gets pushed out of the lifter way easier than dino oil. It is safe to assume, down right logical a conclusion, to say it can't hold the lifter fully pumped up. Hence the ongoing ticking , overall noisier valve train. No one would, in their right mind, ever claim an air cooled engine free of some ticking... you just can't justify making it so much worse when it is avoidable. No one need take my word for it, just do the swap from sync to dino and draw your own conclusions. Dino is hands down quieter."
I disagree totally. Firstly, "quieter" is subjective, and hard to measure. Things are often quieter if people believe they are, a bit like engines are cooler if they believe they are.
I did my own oil research, I run penrite sin 10.
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdf...OCT%202010.pdf
vs
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdf...JAN%202010.pdf
The first one is a full syn, 2nd dino - this is the oil most aussies run. Check the centistokes - 23.9 for the dino, 28.4 for the syn. Much less "runny" than any dino oil I could find. Hence I run the syn 10 in the 124.
You are making a huge generalization when you say syn oils are too "runny".
Indeed the clacking (not ticking) goes away, its the endless ticking afterward that is troublesome. What I am saying is that sync is too thin, runny... and gets pushed out of the lifter way easier than dino oil. It is safe to assume, down right logical a conclusion, to say it can't hold the lifter fully pumped up. Hence the ongoing ticking , overall noisier valve train. No one would, in their right mind, ever claim an air cooled engine free of some ticking... you just can't justify making it so much worse when it is avoidable. No one need take my word for it, just do the swap from sync to dino and draw your own conclusions. Dino is hands down quieter."
I disagree totally. Firstly, "quieter" is subjective, and hard to measure. Things are often quieter if people believe they are, a bit like engines are cooler if they believe they are.
I did my own oil research, I run penrite sin 10.
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdf...OCT%202010.pdf
vs
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdf...JAN%202010.pdf
The first one is a full syn, 2nd dino - this is the oil most aussies run. Check the centistokes - 23.9 for the dino, 28.4 for the syn. Much less "runny" than any dino oil I could find. Hence I run the syn 10 in the 124.
You are making a huge generalization when you say syn oils are too "runny".
Last edited by kingkingking; 05-18-2011 at 05:05 AM.
#26
05-19-2011 | 03:21 AM
Tourer
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 454
Likes: 1
From: Micawber, Manitoba
Geeze, things are getting a bit complicated these day, syn or dino? Guess I have to make that choice one day soon.
But where are the days when your bike made too much noise (clack clack clack ) and all you would have to do was to pull over on the side of the road and adjust your solid lifters????? Yep its that time again.
But where are the days when your bike made too much noise (clack clack clack ) and all you would have to do was to pull over on the side of the road and adjust your solid lifters????? Yep its that time again.
#27
05-19-2011 | 04:22 AM
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 2
From: Australia
The 124 runs S&S roller rockers and S&S hydro solid lifters, the roller rockers are known for adding noise. I dont think its too noisy when cold, but as I said noisy is subjective. To me a small amount of noise is worth the cold start protection that a 10W oil gives. Those first few mins are where 75% of the wear can happen.
Besides that the 124 is so loud I get complaints when I ride past a graveyard. I dont want quiet, I want extreme protection in the heat of summer when I am belting the daylights out of the poor thing.
If you can pick some up it would be interesting to see if you think it makes the valve train quieter.
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