ABS - Real life experiences - how well do they really work
#1
09-23-2010, 11:11 PM
#2
09-24-2010, 12:07 AM
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I just got into mine last weekend on the little stretch of highway that goes from Vallejo around the North Bay towards Sonoma. Two lane road and traffic was moving at 55 or 60 and then STOPPED for no discernible reason. My initial reaction was to start looking for an escape route (had my little wife and loaded saddlebags and Tbag too) but I didn't need it. I stopped in plenty of time, even being as fully loaded as I'll ever be.
I'm a believer. I can't say for sure if I would have locked up without the ABS, but I can say for sure that I don't need to worry about that.
I'm a believer. I can't say for sure if I would have locked up without the ABS, but I can say for sure that I don't need to worry about that.
#4
09-24-2010, 02:29 AM
I've had a lot of experience with the HD ABS since it was introduced on the police motors in '05. Of course from '05 to "07 was the initial system, while the '08 and newer is the current system mated to the Brembo brakes.
The first thing to understand is how ABS works. Its sensors determine, through measurement of wheel speed when a lock-up is incipient. The system then begins modulating the brakes (releasing and re-applying them) at something like 6 or 7 times a second. This keeps something near the maximum braking, while allowing the wheels to keep rolling. There are two reasons a rolling tire is good. The first is the only one that matters for us on a motor - only a rolling tire can keep the motor upright. The second is that a skidding tire takes longer to stop. In a car both reasons are important, since ABS allows both a shorter stop than a skid, and allows the car to be steered.
Now a couple of more foundation points:
From the above you should realize ABS will not make you stop faster. In fact a perfect rider, under perfect conditions, can stop shorter without ABS, than with ABS. This is because ABS works by backing way slightly from maximum braking. The primary braking exercise in motor school is the Brake and Escape, that involves slowing from 40 MPH in less than 62 feet to a speed that allows maneuvering around a tight obstacle. When I started, ABS wasn't around yet. In every class we'd usually get one significant crash due to a locked front wheel the student did not handle properly (release immediately and properly re-apply). On top of that everyone was leaving a little of their braking power on the table, for fear of a lock-up. The point is these were very well trained riders, with perfect road conditions, reacting to a known hazard. Even then there were problems.
For training purposes, student officers are taught to brake without activating the ABS. If they do, it's not a successful run. Even an ABS equipped motor will stop shorter if the ABS is not activated.
In the Brake and Escape, if ABS is deliberately activated (through improper application of the brakes) and held throughout the exercise, it becomes very difficult to get the necessary slowing in the distance allowed.
So, what all the above is designed to point out is that ABS isn't the absolute fastest way to stop a motorcycle (or any vehicle). I suppose this is the point the guys who claim they don't want ABS are trying to make.
HOWEVER,
First, it's extremely unlikely that when you need maximum braking you will have perfect road conditions. Anything that changes the friction on your braking path it likely to cause a wheel lock. A pothole, a manhole, a painted line, sand, oil, or anything that is more slippery than the road surface will obviously cause an impending skid to become a locked-wheel skid.
Second, even if the road surface is perfect, are you willing to bet your life (or at least bet injury and property damage) that your braking skills are perfect? If your braking at the threshold, the only reason would be an emergency has arisen that you failed to foresee. I've practiced threshold braking probably in excess of 1000 repetitions, and yet have used the skill only once or twice on the road. Those times on the road I was fortunate enough to not lock a wheel. Practice and skill development is a big part of the reason why; good luck is another big part.
Finally, having ABS gives you the confidence to brake to the maximum. As I mentioned above, in the pre-ABS days, running the brake and escape exercise, I know I was always leaving a little of the motor's braking power on the table, for fear of locking a wheel. I was still successful, but not as confident as I could be. In my case this would manifest itself in uneven speed at the entry of the exercise. We're checked with radar, and 40 MPH is the correct speed to enter. A minimum of 38 MPH is required for a passing run. In the days before ABS my speeds would range from 38 up to about 43 MPH. Once I was able to take away the concern of locking a wheel, I was able to concentrate on dialing it in. My first exam on an ABS motor all four of my test runs were dead-on 40 MPH. My point is not simply to brag. Rather it's to illustrate that when you're braking to the threshold you have plenty to worry about. ABS allows you to concentrate on the important issues (evaluating the hazard, planning an escape route, downshifting to be in the proper gear should the hazard clear, etc) rather than simply concerning yourself with the mechanics of getting the maximum you can out of your brakes.
The technique of braking is exactly the same whether your motorcycle has ABS or not. The difference comes when the technique has failed. On a non-ABS motor it requires an immediate release and proper re-application, to handle a front wheel lock-up. That takes time, and time equals distance. It also takes a cool reaction to a hot situation. On an ABS motor, if the ABS activates, it IS an indication you've made a braking error. However, your response is simply keep pulling the lever, or pressing the pedal. As noted above, it will lengthen your braking distance, but by very little, and by far less than the method needed on a non-ABS motor. This means you can sit down later and consider how your braking error occurred, rather than letting the accident reconstructionist do it for you. (By the way if you have ABS, and you've felt it activate on the street, you should figure out what you're doing wrong in your braking, because you are doing something that can be improved).
So, the goal if you have ABS is to never know it's there. Just like all your other forms of insurance, and your other safety equipment. Unlike a helmet, a seat belt, an air bag, or car insurance, the beauty of ABS is it can jump in to prevent an accident, not just lessen the severity, or try to fix things later.
When you get the ABS motor, take it out to a parking lot and do some braking with it. Deliberately over-brake with the front and the rear, to activate the system in each. This way you'll know what it feels like, both in the lever/pedal, and how it makes the motorcycle behave (you'll feel the "brake-release-brake-release" as it modulates). The DVD that Harley provides with the ABS motors is well worth watching. It explains ABS, and it explains how the H-D system works and what you'll see and feel.
Finally, here are two videos:
Me on an ABS equipped motor (40 MPH entry speed):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJbXM_v5j6Y
And my friend David on a non-ABS motor (also 40 MPH entry):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bke4iKKx5-I
It's the exact same exercise, run at the same speed. Hopefully you notice that the confidence imparted by the ABS allows me to run it a little more smoothly. However, the ABS system was not activated, and the motorcycle stops just as quickly as the non-ABS motor (in fact a little more quickly since the Brembos are a superior brake to the prior iteration).
Harris
Denver, CO
www.youtube.com/conedown
The first thing to understand is how ABS works. Its sensors determine, through measurement of wheel speed when a lock-up is incipient. The system then begins modulating the brakes (releasing and re-applying them) at something like 6 or 7 times a second. This keeps something near the maximum braking, while allowing the wheels to keep rolling. There are two reasons a rolling tire is good. The first is the only one that matters for us on a motor - only a rolling tire can keep the motor upright. The second is that a skidding tire takes longer to stop. In a car both reasons are important, since ABS allows both a shorter stop than a skid, and allows the car to be steered.
Now a couple of more foundation points:
From the above you should realize ABS will not make you stop faster. In fact a perfect rider, under perfect conditions, can stop shorter without ABS, than with ABS. This is because ABS works by backing way slightly from maximum braking. The primary braking exercise in motor school is the Brake and Escape, that involves slowing from 40 MPH in less than 62 feet to a speed that allows maneuvering around a tight obstacle. When I started, ABS wasn't around yet. In every class we'd usually get one significant crash due to a locked front wheel the student did not handle properly (release immediately and properly re-apply). On top of that everyone was leaving a little of their braking power on the table, for fear of a lock-up. The point is these were very well trained riders, with perfect road conditions, reacting to a known hazard. Even then there were problems.
For training purposes, student officers are taught to brake without activating the ABS. If they do, it's not a successful run. Even an ABS equipped motor will stop shorter if the ABS is not activated.
In the Brake and Escape, if ABS is deliberately activated (through improper application of the brakes) and held throughout the exercise, it becomes very difficult to get the necessary slowing in the distance allowed.
So, what all the above is designed to point out is that ABS isn't the absolute fastest way to stop a motorcycle (or any vehicle). I suppose this is the point the guys who claim they don't want ABS are trying to make.
HOWEVER,
First, it's extremely unlikely that when you need maximum braking you will have perfect road conditions. Anything that changes the friction on your braking path it likely to cause a wheel lock. A pothole, a manhole, a painted line, sand, oil, or anything that is more slippery than the road surface will obviously cause an impending skid to become a locked-wheel skid.
Second, even if the road surface is perfect, are you willing to bet your life (or at least bet injury and property damage) that your braking skills are perfect? If your braking at the threshold, the only reason would be an emergency has arisen that you failed to foresee. I've practiced threshold braking probably in excess of 1000 repetitions, and yet have used the skill only once or twice on the road. Those times on the road I was fortunate enough to not lock a wheel. Practice and skill development is a big part of the reason why; good luck is another big part.
Finally, having ABS gives you the confidence to brake to the maximum. As I mentioned above, in the pre-ABS days, running the brake and escape exercise, I know I was always leaving a little of the motor's braking power on the table, for fear of locking a wheel. I was still successful, but not as confident as I could be. In my case this would manifest itself in uneven speed at the entry of the exercise. We're checked with radar, and 40 MPH is the correct speed to enter. A minimum of 38 MPH is required for a passing run. In the days before ABS my speeds would range from 38 up to about 43 MPH. Once I was able to take away the concern of locking a wheel, I was able to concentrate on dialing it in. My first exam on an ABS motor all four of my test runs were dead-on 40 MPH. My point is not simply to brag. Rather it's to illustrate that when you're braking to the threshold you have plenty to worry about. ABS allows you to concentrate on the important issues (evaluating the hazard, planning an escape route, downshifting to be in the proper gear should the hazard clear, etc) rather than simply concerning yourself with the mechanics of getting the maximum you can out of your brakes.
The technique of braking is exactly the same whether your motorcycle has ABS or not. The difference comes when the technique has failed. On a non-ABS motor it requires an immediate release and proper re-application, to handle a front wheel lock-up. That takes time, and time equals distance. It also takes a cool reaction to a hot situation. On an ABS motor, if the ABS activates, it IS an indication you've made a braking error. However, your response is simply keep pulling the lever, or pressing the pedal. As noted above, it will lengthen your braking distance, but by very little, and by far less than the method needed on a non-ABS motor. This means you can sit down later and consider how your braking error occurred, rather than letting the accident reconstructionist do it for you. (By the way if you have ABS, and you've felt it activate on the street, you should figure out what you're doing wrong in your braking, because you are doing something that can be improved).
So, the goal if you have ABS is to never know it's there. Just like all your other forms of insurance, and your other safety equipment. Unlike a helmet, a seat belt, an air bag, or car insurance, the beauty of ABS is it can jump in to prevent an accident, not just lessen the severity, or try to fix things later.
When you get the ABS motor, take it out to a parking lot and do some braking with it. Deliberately over-brake with the front and the rear, to activate the system in each. This way you'll know what it feels like, both in the lever/pedal, and how it makes the motorcycle behave (you'll feel the "brake-release-brake-release" as it modulates). The DVD that Harley provides with the ABS motors is well worth watching. It explains ABS, and it explains how the H-D system works and what you'll see and feel.
Finally, here are two videos:
Me on an ABS equipped motor (40 MPH entry speed):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJbXM_v5j6Y
And my friend David on a non-ABS motor (also 40 MPH entry):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bke4iKKx5-I
It's the exact same exercise, run at the same speed. Hopefully you notice that the confidence imparted by the ABS allows me to run it a little more smoothly. However, the ABS system was not activated, and the motorcycle stops just as quickly as the non-ABS motor (in fact a little more quickly since the Brembos are a superior brake to the prior iteration).
Harris
Denver, CO
www.youtube.com/conedown
Last edited by motorlessons; 09-24-2010 at 05:17 PM.
#5
09-24-2010, 02:32 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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Im a believer and like them. Wifey and I were cruising down the back roads about 45 or so, sight seeing and not really paying attention to where we were going, when we came up on our turnoff. I mashed on the front and rear breaks to see if we could stop in time. It didnt lock up and everything did what it was supposed to.
#7
09-24-2010, 05:03 AM
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#8
09-24-2010, 06:04 AM
Motor- Really good stuff here shared! Thanks much. I am not on an ABS bike. When I bought my early 08 it was not available until mid year. I think everything you have said is absolutely on target, and appreciate you sharing your vast experience with the rest of us. Do I wish I had the safety factor of ABS yes. As you point out, it gives you confidence to test and train to the braking limits on your bike. I always fear a lock up in a emergency situation. Its much harder to learn that limitation on a bike without it.
I've had a lot of experience with the HD ABS since it was introduced on the police motors in '05. Of course from '05 to "07 was the initial system, while the '08 and newer is the current system mated to the Brembo brakes.
The first thing to understand is how ABS works. It the sensors determine, through measurement of wheel speed when a lock-up is incipient. The system then begins modulating the brakes (releasing and re-applying them) at something like 6 or 7 times a second. This keeps something near the maximum braking, while allowing the wheels to keep rolling. There are two reasons a rolling tire is good. The first is the only one that matters for us on a motor - only a rolling tire can keep the motor upright. The second is that a skidding tire takes longer to stop. In a car both reasons are important, since ABS allows both a shorter stop than a skid, and allows the car to be steered.
Now a couple of more foundation points:
From the above you should realize ABS will not make you stop faster. In fact a perfect rider, under perfect conditions, can stop shorter without ABS, than with ABS. This is because ABS works by backing way slightly from maximum braking. The primary braking exercise in motor school is the Brake and Escape, that involves slowing from 40 MPH in less than 62 feet to a speed that allows maneuvering around a tight obstacle. When I started, ABS wasn't around yet. In every class we'd usually get one significant crash due to a locked front wheel the student did not handle properly (release immediately and properly re-apply). On top of that everyone was leaving a little of their braking power on the table, for fear of a lock-up. The point is these were very well trained riders, with perfect road conditions, reacting to a known hazard. Even then there were problems.
For training purposes, student officers are taught to brake without activating the ABS. If they do, it's not a successful run. Even an ABS equipped motor will stop shorter if the ABS is not activated.
In the Brake and Escape, if ABS is deliberately activated (through improper application of the brakes) and held throughout the exercise, it becomes very difficult to get the necessary slowing in the distance allowed.
So, what all the above is designed to point out is that ABS isn't the absolute fastest way to stop a motorcycle (or any vehicle). I suppose this is the point the guys who claim they don't want ABS are trying to make.
HOWEVER,
First, it's extremely unlikely that when you need maximum braking you will have perfect road conditions. Anything that changes the friction on your braking path it likely to cause a wheel lock. A pothole, a manhole, a painted line, sand, oil, or anything that is more slippery than the road surface will obviously cause an impending skid to become a locked-wheel skid.
Second, even if the road surface is perfect, are you willing to bet your life (or at least bet injury and property damage) that your braking skills are perfect? If your braking at the threshold, the only reason would be an emergency has arisen that you failed to foresee. I've practiced threshold braking probably in excess of 1000 repetitions, and yet have used the skill only once or twice on the road. Those times on the road I was fortunate enough to not lock a wheel. Practice and skill development is a big part of the reason why; good luck is another big part.
Finally, having ABS gives you the confidence to brake to the maximum. As I mentioned above, in the pre-ABS days, running the brake and escape exercise, I know I was always leaving a little of the motor's braking power on the table, for fear of locking a wheel. I was still successful, but not as confident as I could be. In my case this would manifest itself in uneven speed at the entry of the exercise. We're checked with radar, and 40 MPH is the correct speed to enter. A minimum of 38 MPH is required for a passing run. In the days before ABS my speeds would range from 38 up to about 43 MPH. Once I was able to take away the concern of locking a wheel, I was able to concentrate on dialing it in. My first exam on an ABS motor all four of my test runs were dead-on 40 MPH. My point is not simply to brag. Rather it's to illustrate that when you're braking to the threshold you have plenty to worry about. ABS allows you to concentrate on the important issues (evaluating the hazard, planning an escape route, downshifting to be in the proper gear should the hazard clear, etc) rather than simply concerning yourself with the mechanics of getting the maximum you can out of your brakes.
The technique of braking is exactly the same whether your motorcycle has ABS or not. The difference comes when the technique has failed. On a non-ABS motor it requires an immediate release and proper re-application, to handle a wheel lock-up. That takes time, and time equals distance. It also takes a cool reaction to a hot situation. On an ABS motor, if the ABS activates, it IS an indication you've made a braking error. However, your response is simply keep pulling the lever, or pressing the pedal. As noted above, it will lengthen your braking distance, but by very little, and by far less than the method needed on a non-ABS motor. This means you can sit down later and consider how your braking error occurred, rather than letting the accident reconstructionist do it for you. (By the way if you have ABS, and you've felt it activate on the street, you should figure out what you're doing wrong in your braking, because you are doing something that can be improved).
So, the goal if you have ABS is to never know it's there. Just like all your other forms of insurance, and your other safety equipment. Unlike a helmet, a seat belt, an air bag, or car insurance, the beauty of ABS is it can jump in to prevent an accident, not just lessen the severity, or try to fix things later.
When you get the ABS motor, take it out to a parking lot and do some braking with it. Deliberately over-brake with the front and the rear, to activate the system in each. This way you'll know what it feels like, both in the lever/pedal, and how it makes the motorcycle behave (you'll feel the "brake-release-brake-release" as it modulates). The DVD that Harley provides with the ABS motors is well worth watching. It explains ABS, and it explains how the H-D system works and what you'll see and feel.
Finally, here are two videos:
Me on an ABS equipped motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJbXM_v5j6Y
And my friend David on a non-ABS motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bke4iKKx5-I
It's the exact same exercise, run at the same speed. Hopefully you notice that the confidence imparted by the ABS allows me to run it a little more smoothly. However, the ABS system was not activated, and the motorcycle stops just as quickly as the non-ABS motor (in fact a little more quickly since the Brembos are a superior brake to the prior iteration).
Harris
Denver, CO
www.youtube.com/conedown
The first thing to understand is how ABS works. It the sensors determine, through measurement of wheel speed when a lock-up is incipient. The system then begins modulating the brakes (releasing and re-applying them) at something like 6 or 7 times a second. This keeps something near the maximum braking, while allowing the wheels to keep rolling. There are two reasons a rolling tire is good. The first is the only one that matters for us on a motor - only a rolling tire can keep the motor upright. The second is that a skidding tire takes longer to stop. In a car both reasons are important, since ABS allows both a shorter stop than a skid, and allows the car to be steered.
Now a couple of more foundation points:
From the above you should realize ABS will not make you stop faster. In fact a perfect rider, under perfect conditions, can stop shorter without ABS, than with ABS. This is because ABS works by backing way slightly from maximum braking. The primary braking exercise in motor school is the Brake and Escape, that involves slowing from 40 MPH in less than 62 feet to a speed that allows maneuvering around a tight obstacle. When I started, ABS wasn't around yet. In every class we'd usually get one significant crash due to a locked front wheel the student did not handle properly (release immediately and properly re-apply). On top of that everyone was leaving a little of their braking power on the table, for fear of a lock-up. The point is these were very well trained riders, with perfect road conditions, reacting to a known hazard. Even then there were problems.
For training purposes, student officers are taught to brake without activating the ABS. If they do, it's not a successful run. Even an ABS equipped motor will stop shorter if the ABS is not activated.
In the Brake and Escape, if ABS is deliberately activated (through improper application of the brakes) and held throughout the exercise, it becomes very difficult to get the necessary slowing in the distance allowed.
So, what all the above is designed to point out is that ABS isn't the absolute fastest way to stop a motorcycle (or any vehicle). I suppose this is the point the guys who claim they don't want ABS are trying to make.
HOWEVER,
First, it's extremely unlikely that when you need maximum braking you will have perfect road conditions. Anything that changes the friction on your braking path it likely to cause a wheel lock. A pothole, a manhole, a painted line, sand, oil, or anything that is more slippery than the road surface will obviously cause an impending skid to become a locked-wheel skid.
Second, even if the road surface is perfect, are you willing to bet your life (or at least bet injury and property damage) that your braking skills are perfect? If your braking at the threshold, the only reason would be an emergency has arisen that you failed to foresee. I've practiced threshold braking probably in excess of 1000 repetitions, and yet have used the skill only once or twice on the road. Those times on the road I was fortunate enough to not lock a wheel. Practice and skill development is a big part of the reason why; good luck is another big part.
Finally, having ABS gives you the confidence to brake to the maximum. As I mentioned above, in the pre-ABS days, running the brake and escape exercise, I know I was always leaving a little of the motor's braking power on the table, for fear of locking a wheel. I was still successful, but not as confident as I could be. In my case this would manifest itself in uneven speed at the entry of the exercise. We're checked with radar, and 40 MPH is the correct speed to enter. A minimum of 38 MPH is required for a passing run. In the days before ABS my speeds would range from 38 up to about 43 MPH. Once I was able to take away the concern of locking a wheel, I was able to concentrate on dialing it in. My first exam on an ABS motor all four of my test runs were dead-on 40 MPH. My point is not simply to brag. Rather it's to illustrate that when you're braking to the threshold you have plenty to worry about. ABS allows you to concentrate on the important issues (evaluating the hazard, planning an escape route, downshifting to be in the proper gear should the hazard clear, etc) rather than simply concerning yourself with the mechanics of getting the maximum you can out of your brakes.
The technique of braking is exactly the same whether your motorcycle has ABS or not. The difference comes when the technique has failed. On a non-ABS motor it requires an immediate release and proper re-application, to handle a wheel lock-up. That takes time, and time equals distance. It also takes a cool reaction to a hot situation. On an ABS motor, if the ABS activates, it IS an indication you've made a braking error. However, your response is simply keep pulling the lever, or pressing the pedal. As noted above, it will lengthen your braking distance, but by very little, and by far less than the method needed on a non-ABS motor. This means you can sit down later and consider how your braking error occurred, rather than letting the accident reconstructionist do it for you. (By the way if you have ABS, and you've felt it activate on the street, you should figure out what you're doing wrong in your braking, because you are doing something that can be improved).
So, the goal if you have ABS is to never know it's there. Just like all your other forms of insurance, and your other safety equipment. Unlike a helmet, a seat belt, an air bag, or car insurance, the beauty of ABS is it can jump in to prevent an accident, not just lessen the severity, or try to fix things later.
When you get the ABS motor, take it out to a parking lot and do some braking with it. Deliberately over-brake with the front and the rear, to activate the system in each. This way you'll know what it feels like, both in the lever/pedal, and how it makes the motorcycle behave (you'll feel the "brake-release-brake-release" as it modulates). The DVD that Harley provides with the ABS motors is well worth watching. It explains ABS, and it explains how the H-D system works and what you'll see and feel.
Finally, here are two videos:
Me on an ABS equipped motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJbXM_v5j6Y
And my friend David on a non-ABS motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bke4iKKx5-I
It's the exact same exercise, run at the same speed. Hopefully you notice that the confidence imparted by the ABS allows me to run it a little more smoothly. However, the ABS system was not activated, and the motorcycle stops just as quickly as the non-ABS motor (in fact a little more quickly since the Brembos are a superior brake to the prior iteration).
Harris
Denver, CO
www.youtube.com/conedown
#9
09-24-2010, 06:13 AM
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I had a metric with out them and all most low sided it during a panic stop on the highway with the wife on the back. We did stop in time but it was a real pucker moment feeling the rear wheel start to step out on me. I have ABS now and it does make me feel better. That said if you brake hard with the front and the rear hits a wavy or choppy road surface the rear will start the ABS dance cause the rear wheel is bouncing about. It will correct when your speed slows enough to stop the bounce or the choppy road surface smoothes out. That is the only problem that I have seen in 33,000 miles and now that I know its working its no problem at all, just hammer the front even more to get the speed down. I won't own a bike with out it...period!!
#10
09-24-2010, 07:34 AM
I agree.
I had the old style police only ABS on my bike. Used to have it, I took it off this summer and converted the front brakes to the current Brembo (non-abs). I didn't care for the old Nissin system. I gather the Brembo abs is far and away better than the old system.
I had the old style police only ABS on my bike. Used to have it, I took it off this summer and converted the front brakes to the current Brembo (non-abs). I didn't care for the old Nissin system. I gather the Brembo abs is far and away better than the old system.