Actually, the original map we provided had plenty of + timing thruout the map. I am not sure of what map you are running now after you had it dyno tuned but 1 degree is generally not going to make a measurable difference, let alone night and day results. I would be really interested to take a look at your map. Also note there is a fine line when adding timing some are not noting in this thread. With even the slightest amount of detonation the ECM will start pulling timing and you will be actually be running less advance. The ion knock sensors will pick up any signs of detonation and instantly reduce spark timing, most times well before the human ear can hear it. We can see this first hand on the dyno with our software and set the timing tables in our maps based on our datalogs.

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EDIT: RANDYTRO, here is the actual timing table from the map we provided. You can clearly see that there is +3 igntion advance thru the cruise range and +4 at WOT. I am not sure what your dyno tuner did with our map or if this has been changed. I have offered several times to help you in response to posts you have made on the forum, however I cannot help those who do not contact me or give me the opportunity.

 

For decades my tuning-by-ear strategy has always been to apply as much ignition advance as possible without detonation, as this theoretically maximizes mileage and cooling with the type of gas I select, all other factors being equal. But these newer vehicles with ion-discharge knock-sensing can evidently sense detonation before you hear it. I noticed that my bike with stock cams and Fuel Moto Power Package would detonate at roll-on with even a +1 in the cruise range, so I obviously didn't add any there.

However, I was able to add +4 after installing 255 cams, which was a surprise since CCP is increased and that should induce more detonation at those points. More goes into these things than meets the eye--like cam duration, etc.--so I added +3 in the cruise range and have never had any detonation. I figured 2° below audible detonation was a safe place to be and Jamie at Fuel Moto agreed with me. Mileage is as good as it can be with this setup so I've settled there, but have not changed any advance or AFR settings (using Auto-Tune) above 40% TP, as I want the power when I need it. I also haven't changed the ignition advance above 20% TP, which maximizes at +4° at 100% TP above about 3500 rpm. This are Fuel Moto's numbers based on their dyno results, so I figure they're maximized. The bike runs very strong, so they'll stay there.

I will say that I have played with advance settings from 0 to +3 in the cruise range and I cannot feel any difference in performance, throttle response, or engine temperatures measured (oil and front head). Of course I roll out of this range when accelerating, so I'm not sure what performance changes would be realized between 2-3k RPM and 5-15% TP. Thus, I don't understand these major performance improvements with modest timing changes, as it doesn't happen with my bike. OTOH I say if it works, do it.

 

Da Butcher,
What year are your bikes?

 

.........

 

I'm glad to see that this thread has been updated. My curiousity has been piqued and now I have a question. First, for those that have tweaked their timing tables....what octane (and brand) of gasoline are you running?? And for Jamie, do you tune with 91 octane, 93 octane, or ??? Just curious because I always try to run 93 (Mobil), when available, and am wondering if anything is being left on the table if your tuning is done with 91 octane. I realize that you have to provide a 'cushion' with your tunes to compensate for the occasional tank of crap gas we all eventually run across, but how much of a cushion are we talking about ?

 

All three are 2009's. My girls' Street Glide, and my Electra & Roadie.



Randytro, very interesting. You mention yours wasn't advanced and only set to Zero's. Imagine having my maps that were sent to me with a smattering of negative numbers like -3 throughout. Hell, by comparison mine might have at least run somewhat OK if it weren't for all the -3's from just off idle to about 4000 RPM. I still have a couple minor issues, but I haven't been able to sit down and touch the bike in a little while. It has stalled a couple times, but NOWHERE near as bad as it was.
I disagree with the assertion that the knock sensors & ECM will pull the timing enough and/or quick enough so that we wouldn't hear it. Why? Because I will hear it all the time if I'm not conscious of my throttle hand during low RPM quick movements. It will ping if I just blip the throttle at a stop light, if I move my wrist fast enough. Of course, as soon as you learn that, you don't do that. I buffer my throttle inputs in a similar manner that a steering damper works on a sportbike, I mentally slow it down just a tick and she doesn't make a noise. I then throw that map into my Electra and it acts the pretty much the same. Obviously, it's the same map. If the knock sensors were that good or that quick, I wouldn't hear the pinging. As a side note, knowing there is ping potential at modest RPM's, I'll usually keep a bit more R's on the clock when I'm in environments that may necessitate quick acceleration.
Bottom line, good to see yours is finally better. Trust me, I KNOW your frustration!

 

I always use the highest octane available, almost always 93 in this area. When in other states I've seen as low as 91 and the bike seems to run fine on it. With knock-sensing on modern engines, using a low-grade gas will affect performance, heat, and mileage since the ECM will be pulling back on the timing when it senses detonation. When you add-up all these effects I think it's worth the extra cost. FWIW, using a higher grade of gas than the engine needs is a waste of money, as it doesn't help in any way if detonation isn't a factor.

IIRC HD's spec is 91-octane or more, so in most (all?) areas that means premium gas, as the middle grade is usually 89.

 

Actually, the ion-discharge knock-sensing feature of the ECM can detect incipient knock before it is audible. That's why I set my ignition advance 2° below the point where I can hear detonation. IOW, mine pings at 5° at roll-on, so I have it set at 3° even though I hear nothing at 4°.

 

There is more to this story than what was posted here. Randytro, since you have been posting your issues I have asked you in this thread as well as others to contact me personally for help and you have not done so. You seem to blame me for your running issues which existed back when you had issues with your XIED's which were clearly noted in your email to me before your purchase, you then purchased a PC-V and although in your words it made "a big difference" when you felt it was still not running correct despite the changes we made to your maps I did note something did not add up simply based on my experiences of working with these bike everyday, but was ready and willing to make additional map revisions. This was all before you posted your issue on the forum. You also noted to me you were taking it to have it dyno tuned so it would be "right". You then took your bike and had it dyno tuned by someone and are noting it still is not correct. Unlike the dyno tune which you surely paid good money for, any and all technical support and maps that were provided by Fuel Moto were absolutely free as simply an added value we offer and you are posting your dissatisfaction, yet you are not making any mention to the dyno tune you paid for which apparently is not correct.

As far as the timing table in your map, the one I posted IS the timing table taken directly from the original map. This was also the table in the revised map I sent you, if you still have the email you can check it or I can reforward it to you. These were not the wrong maps, I have copies of the emails and have checked them, the revisions and our timing tables are right there. Are you sure you are loading the maps and using the software correctly?

Regardless, if you are having issues you are welcome to contact me as I have asked and I can spend as much time as we need to work on getting your bike running to your liking. I would really like to hear from you and welcome your call

 

To be honest -3 in the timing table is not uncommon. For example, there are far more than 3 degrees of timing between the timing tables on different years, models and calibrations. As far as the knock strategy, trust me IT DOES pull timing well before you can hear it. This is simply a fact and you can see in black and white if datalog it either on the dyno or on the road. The amount of timing it pulls back all depends on what is written in the OEM calibration. This is how we set the timing in our maps when we are developing them. If you are hearing a knock event you generally need to remove 2-4 degrees, and if you are getting pinging when you blip the throttle or under quick accelleration you have too much advance.

Again, you are welcome to contact me and I would be happy to help you optimize your timing/fuel tables and get your bike running awesome. I would really like to hear from you so I can help.