I'm sure this is old news to many of you but after going through the learning curve on what equipment does what, and the best way to buy what I want to fill my tuning needs, I found that there is a lot of confusion on this subject, especially regarding the different devices available to tune our bikes using air fuel ratios instead of going to a dyno-tune facility to get similar results.

If I miss anything here it is my hope that somebody else can fill in the blanks and/or correct what I have posted.

I'm assuming the readers know what a Power Commander is, and what it does.
My post is to address the optional components that make a PC a 'system' tool for tuning (using air fuel ratios) and clear up some confusion regarding that aspect of their use.

The optimum AFR for a normally aspirated engine is about 13.2:1, but our EPA mandated bikes run lean at ~14.7:1.
Having an AFR measuring tool that makes it easy to get to the fatter 13.2:1 can provide increased performance and lower operating temps., as well as provide a means to obtain very near dyno results without ever seeing a dyno, for all the different modifications we make to our bikes in order to increase performance, longevity and maintainability.

Some folks feel that you should just dyno-tune your bike, and once set ... never change the map unless you change the bikes components.
But ...... there is a strong argument for having the ability to change your map as your riding conditions change, and to be abe to do that while you are riding the bike.

For example ... you want "best performance", or you are touring and want a "cruise mode" to conserve fuel, or you are stuck in traffic and would like to run fatter to stay cool in "parade mode".
So ....the ability to have different maps that you can switch between while riding, that optimize your bike' AFRs for these conditions, is also a pretty good tool to have .... as well as just being way cool (no pun intended).

Dynojet has two systems available that can do this.
One for the older fuel injected bikes, and another one for the newer fuel injected bikes.

Fuel Moto site lists the change between the two systems takes place in 2009, and I think that is correct .... but the Dynojet site is not as clear about the change, so if considering buying a PC system, make sure what system is for your year bike.

It 'appers' the 2008 and older bikes use the Dynojet PCIII USB system, and 2009 and newer use the PCV system.

Taking the above into consideration ......there are accordingly two distinctly different systems that allow either manual (PCIII/LCD-100/WBC1 system) or automatic (PCV/LCD-200/WBC2 system) tuning of your bike using Air Fuel Ratio.
Both systems use different versions of hardware that incorporates the use of a Bosh 'wide band' O2 sensor to read air fuel ratios in real time, and provide a means for you to "auto-log the data" to be used to tune your bike by tweaking the maps for your particular bikes aftermarket components (air filter, exhaust, cams, head/cylinder work and etc.) based on your target AFRs at different throttle positions.


The one for the older (1999 to 2008) bikes is the PCIII USB with the touch screen LCD-100 and the Wide Band Commander version 1 (and optonally the Multi-Hub).

This system allows you to automatically data log the actual AFRs and throttle positions in the LCD-100, and store that on an SD card, while riding the bike.

The least expensive way to buy this system is to buy the PCIII, The LCD-100 and the "base WBC1 kit" (which is only available through Dynojet) and comes with a special cable that connects the PCIII-LCD-100 and WBC1 together (see more on this below).

If you also want to be able to display speed, gear position and other info on the LCD-100, and have the ability to use the "Drag Race Emulator" you will need to add the LCD Multi-Function Hub Accessory.

The system for the newer bikes consists of the PCV, the touch screen display LCD-200, and the Wide Band Commander 2.

This system's components are not interchangable with the older system's components ..... with one exception ...... the LCD-200 'can' be firmware "downgraded" by Dynojet to be a LCD-100.

Once you have maps set up for different riding conditions you can switch amongst these maps, either with the LCD-100 or by using the handle bar mounted map switch that is part of the hub accessory.

The newer PCV/LCD-200/WBC2 (for 2009 bikes and newer) has the auto tune function that uses the same data to also make the adjustments to maintain an AFR automatically.
I am not sure if the PCV/LCD-200/WBC2 will also auto-detect the need to switch to parade mode if the bike gets hot, but I suspect it does .... from different threads I've read about it.

But since my needs are for the older PCIII/LCD-100/WBC1 I have not dug too deeply into all the advancements the PCV/LCD-200/WBC2 has to offer.

Once again, other than the downgrade to the LCD-200 these two system components are not interchangeable.
And the only reason I can think of that somebody would want to downgrade the LCD-200 to an LCD-100, is if you got a great deal on a WBC2 (that includes the LCD-200) and wanted to use the LCD-200 with the PCIII system.

Also .... although they both have many of the same functions, I believe the utilities that run those functions are located in different pieces of hardware.
This is based on the reply I received from Dynojet stating the WBC1 is a more advanced "stand-alone" system than is the WBC2, but the WBC2 is easier to install (two wires) and less expensive.
That, and the fact that things (like the drag race emulator) are not available to the PCIII/LCD-100 unless you buy the hub, when they are included in the PCV/LCD-200 system leads me to belive this is indicative of the differences that make the two system's components incompatible with each other.

Finally ........ I want to make the point that for us older system users, you don't need to spend the money to get a WBC1 (which will include a redundant AFR gauge) and then also buy the special cable for the WBC1 to connect with the PCIII and LCD-100.
You can simply buy the PCIII from a shop with the best delivered price you can find, and the same for the LCD-100, 'then' buy the "base WBC1" kit from Dynojet directly, which will include the $49 cable and all the other WBC1 stuff, but since you will be using the LCD-100 to display AFRs/TP etc, it does not have the (duplicated) AFR gauge in that kit.

I have probably left some things out, and if so, or I have made mistakes 'please' do feel free to provide the needed corrections.

 

The optimal tuning range for WOT is usually considered to be 13.0-13.2:1 AFR, but for cruising you wouldn't likely ever run it that rich, and if you did your mileage would surely suck. Fuel Moto, for example, typically tunes for 13.0 from 80-100% throttle (TP) and ~13.7 in the cruise-range, with a progressive transition between those ranges. The latter AFR is only optimal for cooling, IMO, as I and many others run leaner in the cruise range for mileage. A few of us use the map-switch feature ("hardware switch" in Auto-Tune) to essentially have two maps to use at the flip of a switch. IMO the LCD-100/200 would be very poor methods for toggling maps on the fly for several reasons, not the least of which being safety.

If you'll look more closely on the Fuel Moto site you'll see that the PCV is available for 2002 and up Delphi bikes, labeled "Retrofit Kits" for 2002-08 models, and the 2009< requirement is only a DynoJet spec. This policy is adopted with the blessing of DJ, BTW, and you get a double-warranty from Fuel Moto (2 years). I am running the PCV with Auto-Tune and the LCD-200 with my '07 and all but the last run flawlessly (see note on LCD-200 below). The older M&M EFI in 2001 and earlier bikes are destined to run only the PCIII.

WB1 for PCIII and WB2 for PCV are monitoring devices that allow you to data-log as you ride, with the added feature of using the optional LCD-100/200 display unit. I don't know of any Harley riders who are using these, although many have opted for the Auto-Tune kit, which goes a step further by providing true auto-tuning of AFRs. As you've noted it will only work with the PCV. As with WB2 it will also data-log and works with the LCD-200. As a side note, the LCD-200 is not ready for prime time at this time, IMO, and I wouldn't recommend it 'til DJ works the glitches out. I'll avoid getting off on a tangent on that subject at this time, for which everyone will undoubtedly be grateful.

The PCIII requires the expensive "multifunction hub" to use a map switch, but the PCV only requires the switch, and any on-off switch will do. BTW, unless they have changed the design in the past two years their "handlebar" switch fits only 7/8" bars. It works well on the saddlebag guard, which is where I mounted mine when I had a PCIII. For the PCV-AT I purchased a second ACC switch for my switch panel that is unpowered, and I'm using it for my "hardware switch." The "map switch" is a function of the PCV alone and will allow you to toggle between two maps. The "hardware switch" is an option for the PCV Auto-Tune, and with it you can toggle between open-loop mode (base map) and closed-loop "learning" mode. Both AT and the basic-PCV switch option will accomplish essentially the same end-result, but just does it in a different way.

No, the WB2 does not auto-tune. For that you'll need the Auto-Tune kit, and parade mode (EITMS) is a function of the ECM, not the PCV or any of its hardware options.

 

I am a pretty simple guy and have got to say that this stuff kinda makes my head spin. I have installed the PC V on my 2010 flhrc and it seems to be running pretty good, I have also been thinking about adding the AT... if I do couldn't I just install it and forget about it?

I am really looking forward to having it dialed in and just enjoying the ride. Love the look and sound of my new exhaust and breather ,,, just wish the PC folks had a map for that
When I had my metric cruiser and the PC III they had a map specifically designed for my setup and my bike ran awesome... I'll get her there... I hope anyway

 

iclick, thanks for adding to this thread and helping clear up some of the PCIII to PCV years, as well as your help with other info., specifically that associated with the PCV and it's optional components.

I'm only a bit surprised to see you say it's probably too dangerous to use the LCD-100 to change maps.
Although you can preset/highlight a different map before the ride, and then just hit the select button on the LCD-100 (like a radio preset tuning button) .... on a Harley that little button ..... on the little LCD-100 screen ...... is probably a vibrating point better suited for sobriety testing, and it would be better to make a different map selection by pulling over and then selecting it while at a stop.

Also thanks for better defining the AFR ratio of 13.2:1 that I quoted.
My paragraph explaining a leaner AFR for cruising versus fatter for traffic and/or performance (like drag racing) was probably written far too ambiguously to help anyone.

Also, I had hoped I was clear that the WBCs only provide the AFRs to be logged in the LCDs, allowing you to download that data and make more intelligent changes to a map, to fine tune it based on AFRs, not that they have a direct influence on the PCIII allowing it to make changes.
They don't talk to each other at all. Only the LCD comunicates with the PCIII, but because it can hold as many maps as up to a 1 Gig SD card can hold, you have access to those maps (that you modify based on the info from the WBC, which is data logged in the LCD-100) and switch to them via the LCD-100 'or' the Multi-hub switch.
I did think the WBC2 was the root brain for the PCV auto tune function, but it appears that is a altogether different option, and thanks for clearing that up too.

 

Just go with the Knightrider XIAD's and be done with all the tuning hassles !!!!!!!!!

3-5 minute plug and play.

www.nightrider.com/parts

 

If all you want is a richer AFR only in closed-loop mode, which is up to about 50% throttle, they will provide some additional cooling and perhaps some marginal improvement in throttle response in that range, but nothing more. They may be a good option for someone who wants to keep the bike totally stock or only a muffler change, but going beyond that will require AFR changes in the open-loop region, and that will require a real tuner.

For those who buy from a reputable tuner/dealer like Fuel Moto you will have no "tuning hassles," as the PCV is plug-and-play with a map installed that's optimized for your hardware. If you upgrade along the way you can get free upgrades, which are very easy to install in the unit.

 

I haven't done any data-logging because the damn thing won't accept an SD card. Don't get me started on the glitches in this LCD-200. However, I wouldn't be trying to read it's very dim screen in daylight and selecting a map unless I was at a dead stop. I believe trying to do it even if the display was clearly visible would be dangerous while moving.

[rant] The LCD-200 has some virtue, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, especially at its exorbitant price of $300. If this one wasn't on indefinite loan and I had forked-over three C-notes for it I would be pissed. The concept is good enough, but it isn't well executed for use on a motorcycle, that is if all the functions worked properly. Again, don't get me started. The display is unreadable in sunlight, the case is cheap plastic, the card door will not stay closed, it is not waterproof, won't format or accept an SD card, some functions don't work (like AFR readout), it frequently zeroes out for short periods, etc. I sent it back to DJ but they fixed nothing. Damn, I got started! [/rant]

I find the LCD display unit to be wanting, to say the least, but the PCIII, PCV, and Auto-Tune are top-tier products IMO.

Here's a write-up on some ideas for using AT with the hardware switch. You can switch maps on the fly in this manner without being unsafe in the process.

 

According the the information I got from DJ the LCD-200 is really just a firmware upgrade to the LCD-100.
So hopefully they will have the bugs in the firmware worked out soon.
I do feel your pain though ..........

But yeah ..... I too was pretty surprised to see how a display advertised as being "weather resistant" was so open to weather....... and so small!!

I agree that at the price it should be at least 4", with a iPhone-like zoom function, much more "weather resistant" ....... and brighter.
I made up a big sun screen for mine.

My bike has the old MM FI (which as you may know .... can be a bit finicky to tuning).
For us MM FI owners, having a complete system that will allow us to use AFRs to tune our bikes when we change engine components, is probably more capable than what Fuel Moto's willingness is to test out all the various combinations of equipment and provide maps for ...... that would be as accurate as the AFR tuning can be, on these smaller population bikes.
That's a total WAG on my part, but I suspect that although they do have booKoo maps for the more popular Delphi FI bikes with every configuration under the sun, these older MM FI bikes don't get the resources to keep up with maps for all the different configurations they might see.

Also ..... there is good enough argument that even maps generated from dyno testing on the same bikes configured the same way, it's not as accurate as doing AFR tuning on the actual bike that is being tuned ........ for a number of reasons.
I'm not sure what camp I'm in on that argument, (but I do lean to it being a moot point for most practical applications) .
Because I'm in an open loop MM FI camp, and plan to do engine mods to my bike as budget and time allow, I'll use the AFR tuning tools that the PCIII/LCD-100/WBC1 allow, rather than trying to adapt a different FI system, or be forced to use potentially less accurate pre-packaged maps that are possibly just 'sorta close' for my MM FI bike.
This way I'll know for sure what the AFRs are.
My WBC1 should be here next week, so I will have a better feel for what the current DJ recommended map is and what using AFRs will do for me.

 

The first two times I tried to downloaded the new firmware I did not wait for it to completely download and all the features did not work. I tried it the third time with my laptop, not my netbook, which is far faster, and I got the "all done" signal, which came a while after the bar graph had run its course. All features now work. I agree the LCD 200 is a $2.00 piece of plastic which is unreadable in sun. I do like the LCD 200 because it lets me know where I need to adjust and lets me store multiple maps.

 

I noticed in your post that you have V&H
Dresser Duals headers and are considering installing Auto Tune. I have a 2010 Ultra Classic with the V&H Dresser duals that I order the auto tune for and found out when I got it that the O2 sensous would not fit the bungs in the dresser duals as the sensors the come with the auto tune are larger. Not wanting to cut out the bungs and weld in new ones on a new set of headers I sent them back. Thought you might want to know.