Used oil analysis
#21
07-15-2010, 04:45 AM
to worry. I can't believe the lengths you're going to, to check your bikes. What next, Mounting your laptops for playing with the fuel management system while you're riding? I'll just continue along changing my oil at or before the prescribed intervals and listening to the engine while I'm riding to get me through.
I'm sorry if this offends anyone but, is it just me or is this bordering on the obsurd?
I'm sorry if this offends anyone but, is it just me or is this bordering on the obsurd?
You want to revel in your ignorance, that's your business. And yes, that's absurd.
#23
07-15-2010, 05:10 AM
#25
07-15-2010, 06:29 AM
#26
07-15-2010, 06:37 AM
In principle I am a major fan of oil sampling. As someone who specialises in fluid power this is a crucial element of sensible machine maintenance.
I do not have any experience with analysis of engine oils, and don't do this exercise myself, but some of the issues experienced with hydraulic oils may be relevant here.
1. New oil is NOT clean oil. This is a myth that many suffer from. Certainly in hydraulic oils we expect new oil to be 3 or 4 cleanliness levels off what it should when it comes out the drum. The condition actually improves over time if the filtration system is adequate and correctly maintained.
Actually this is not true in automotive applications although it is absolutely true in hydraulic applications. A key difference between the 2 is that automotive oils run at elevated temperatures which burn off the crucial additives that are contained in the oil.
Good filtration takes care of solid contaminant in the oil (i.e. swarf) but it does not help one bit with chemical contaminant and degridation, eg moisture ingression.
They do not appear to report on the state of additives in the oil, but this doesn't surprise me as they do not have a base benchmark to work from.
One of the major problems with this approach is getting a representative sample. If taken from an engine that has been standing, and right from unscrewing the drain plug, then you will get a healthy dose of solid contaminant that is lying in the bottom of the sump (a magnetic plug and the base of the sump are actually key parts of the overall filtration system of a machine) so that distorts the true picture.
In general we encourage our service engineers to drain a cup of oil off first and then fill the sample bottle. Not sure why you need as much as they asked, normally 50ml (say 2 FlOz) is more than adeqaute
I do not have any experience with analysis of engine oils, and don't do this exercise myself, but some of the issues experienced with hydraulic oils may be relevant here.
1. New oil is NOT clean oil. This is a myth that many suffer from. Certainly in hydraulic oils we expect new oil to be 3 or 4 cleanliness levels off what it should when it comes out the drum. The condition actually improves over time if the filtration system is adequate and correctly maintained.
Good filtration takes care of solid contaminant in the oil (i.e. swarf) but it does not help one bit with chemical contaminant and degridation, eg moisture ingression.
They do not appear to report on the state of additives in the oil, but this doesn't surprise me as they do not have a base benchmark to work from.
One of the major problems with this approach is getting a representative sample. If taken from an engine that has been standing, and right from unscrewing the drain plug, then you will get a healthy dose of solid contaminant that is lying in the bottom of the sump (a magnetic plug and the base of the sump are actually key parts of the overall filtration system of a machine) so that distorts the true picture.
In general we encourage our service engineers to drain a cup of oil off first and then fill the sample bottle. Not sure why you need as much as they asked, normally 50ml (say 2 FlOz) is more than adeqaute
#27
07-15-2010, 07:11 AM
You can't believe the lengths we're going to? Like taking an extra few seconds and sending an oil sample to find out what's going on in my motor? With all the Chicken Little-like panic over "heat issues", I figured I'd put those arguments to rest, and I'd make sure that my motor was staying together.
You want to revel in your ignorance, that's your business. And yes, that's absurd.
You want to revel in your ignorance, that's your business. And yes, that's absurd.
The heat issue is a real issue for me. It effects my comfort as well as the operability of the motorcycle. How many guys here are experiencing loss of throttle response even after the programmed cylinder shutdown should theoretically let go? How many guys are complaining about the radiant heat? These are the things that the rider experiences which make up the "heat issue."
I think we all agree that there are steps that can be taken to manage it. Tune the bike, get rid of the cat, use synthetic oil, yadda yadda.
Monitoring oil temp and condition is one way to potentially tell if any of the mods we are making are having some sort of beneficial effect - or if there is trouble on the horizon.
To address the comment about "hooking up your laptop while riding to change the AFR" - lets be real. When I bought my last new bike in 1991, this technology was not employed or available. But, didn't I effectively do the same thing when I re-jetted a few times after adding new pipes and an air cleaner? Same thing. Once I achieved what I thought was a good running bike, I just "changed the oil prior to the suggested interval and just listened to the engine while riding". Somehow I managed to put 135K on that bike without oil analysis... I never had an engine failure but I sure do wish I knew about Blackstone and their services at that time.
In closing, I think I'm pretty close to end of job on this heat thing. Stage 1 and removing that cat has improved both engine operating temps and rider comfort. Oil analysis will help me look into the future a bit, and I for one believe in predictive tools for most any application. I really enjoy this spirited conversation, and the knowledge that gets shared within!
#28
07-15-2010, 07:18 AM
My "chicken little" panic does not come from what the heat issue is potentially doing (or not) to the motor.
The heat issue is a real issue for me. It effects my comfort as well as the operability of the motorcycle. How many guys here are experiencing loss of throttle response even after the programmed cylinder shutdown should theoretically let go? How many guys are complaining about the radiant heat? These are the things that the rider experiences which make up the "heat issue."
I think we all agree that there are steps that can be taken to manage it. Tune the bike, get rid of the cat, use synthetic oil, yadda yadda.
Monitoring oil temp and condition is one way to potentially tell if any of the mods we are making are having some sort of beneficial effect - or if there is trouble on the horizon.
To address the comment about "hooking up your laptop while riding to change the AFR" - lets be real. When I bought my last new bike in 1991, this technology was not employed or available. But, didn't I effectively do the same thing when I re-jetted a few times after adding new pipes and an air cleaner? Same thing. Once I achieved what I thought was a good running bike, I just "changed the oil prior to the suggested interval and just listened to the engine while riding". Somehow I managed to put 135K on that bike without oil analysis... I never had an engine failure but I sure do wish I knew about Blackstone and their services at that time.
In closing, I think I'm pretty close to end of job on this heat thing. Stage 1 and removing that cat has improved both engine operating temps and rider comfort. Oil analysis will help me look into the future a bit, and I for one believe in predictive tools for most any application. I really enjoy this spirited conversation, and the knowledge that gets shared within!
The heat issue is a real issue for me. It effects my comfort as well as the operability of the motorcycle. How many guys here are experiencing loss of throttle response even after the programmed cylinder shutdown should theoretically let go? How many guys are complaining about the radiant heat? These are the things that the rider experiences which make up the "heat issue."
I think we all agree that there are steps that can be taken to manage it. Tune the bike, get rid of the cat, use synthetic oil, yadda yadda.
Monitoring oil temp and condition is one way to potentially tell if any of the mods we are making are having some sort of beneficial effect - or if there is trouble on the horizon.
To address the comment about "hooking up your laptop while riding to change the AFR" - lets be real. When I bought my last new bike in 1991, this technology was not employed or available. But, didn't I effectively do the same thing when I re-jetted a few times after adding new pipes and an air cleaner? Same thing. Once I achieved what I thought was a good running bike, I just "changed the oil prior to the suggested interval and just listened to the engine while riding". Somehow I managed to put 135K on that bike without oil analysis... I never had an engine failure but I sure do wish I knew about Blackstone and their services at that time.
In closing, I think I'm pretty close to end of job on this heat thing. Stage 1 and removing that cat has improved both engine operating temps and rider comfort. Oil analysis will help me look into the future a bit, and I for one believe in predictive tools for most any application. I really enjoy this spirited conversation, and the knowledge that gets shared within!
#29
07-15-2010, 07:26 AM
Here's a link to one I just did with similar total mileage on my bike (only mine is an '08 I wish I could get 20K a year on it but I can't.
http://app4.websitetonight.com/proje...ds/scan008.pdf
http://app4.websitetonight.com/proje...ds/scan008.pdf