Closed Loop Tuning
#31
08-17-2006 | 11:20 PM
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From: USA
RE: Closed Loop Tuning
ORIGINAL: fimduc
Good catch Ram on the security function... I covered that with DTT today on the phone and was given absolute assurance that security and everything else works just like OEM when you replace the ECM with their TFI. Same thing when you use the Thundermax controller from Zippers as it replaces the ECM too, but in the case of Zippers they do not let you have access to the software......only the reseller/dealer who pay a subscription fee get that .
Good catch Ram on the security function... I covered that with DTT today on the phone and was given absolute assurance that security and everything else works just like OEM when you replace the ECM with their TFI. Same thing when you use the Thundermax controller from Zippers as it replaces the ECM too, but in the case of Zippers they do not let you have access to the software......only the reseller/dealer who pay a subscription fee get that .
You then have to go through all that rig-or-romo (on-off-on-off-on, left blinker etc.... times 3 or 4 sessions at 10 mins each) to get the TSSM and the NEW ECM to talk to each other?
#32
08-17-2006 | 11:27 PM
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From: TX
RE: Closed Loop Tuning
That's a very good question!
We had to do that on one of the bikes I recently worked on. It was my understanding that, that procedure was only good for ECM / TSSM pairs that had already been "mated" previously. THe mating procedd for a stock ECM and TSSM that have never been mated, has to be done by a dealership with their tuning-link (or whatever) and the system talks back to the MotherShip for verification and logging... Right / wrong / ...???...
We had to do that on one of the bikes I recently worked on. It was my understanding that, that procedure was only good for ECM / TSSM pairs that had already been "mated" previously. THe mating procedd for a stock ECM and TSSM that have never been mated, has to be done by a dealership with their tuning-link (or whatever) and the system talks back to the MotherShip for verification and logging... Right / wrong / ...???...
#33
08-18-2006 | 12:29 AM
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#34
08-18-2006 | 02:04 AM
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RE: Closed Loop Tuning
Not sure what you mean Zippers not letting you have access to the software. When I received my ThunderMax I also received the software with it. Plus they allow you to do firmware updates to the ECM, Updates to teh tuning software, plus new and updated maps. Plus I can change various things such as Idle, redline, AFR etc.
ThunderMax is not closed loop yet but will be in the near future with the Bosh WEGO sensors. They will upgrade my present Thundermax to that. I am sure my total investment will be less than the DTT. Then there is the 30 day Money back guarantee.
The things that bothers me about the DTT are #1 the Price. #2 The fact that it is not intended/recommended for stock engines. So if you just put a decent set of pipes and and air cleaner on and do not intend to do head, cam and other work it is not intended/recommended.
The following which is straight from their installation manual on the net.
OVERVIEW
The Twin Tec TCFI IID fuel injection controller
replaces the original equipment (OE) Delphi® controller
on 2001-2007 Harley-Davidson motorcycles with fuel
injected Twin Cam 88 engines. The term TCFI is
used throughout this document as a generic term
and refers to the new TCFI IID controller unless
otherwise noted.
[color=#FF0000]The TCFI is not intended for stock engines. The
TCFI solves tuning problems with highly modified
engines. Competitive “band-aid” products that interface
to the Delphi® controller still rely on speed-density fuel
control. Long duration/high overlap camshafts wreak
havoc with manifold pressure - especially at idle and
cruise RPM. Speed-density based fuel control simply
can’t cope.
http://www.daytona-twintec.com/downl...structions.pdf
ThunderMax is not closed loop yet but will be in the near future with the Bosh WEGO sensors. They will upgrade my present Thundermax to that. I am sure my total investment will be less than the DTT. Then there is the 30 day Money back guarantee.
The things that bothers me about the DTT are #1 the Price. #2 The fact that it is not intended/recommended for stock engines. So if you just put a decent set of pipes and and air cleaner on and do not intend to do head, cam and other work it is not intended/recommended.
The following which is straight from their installation manual on the net.
OVERVIEW
The Twin Tec TCFI IID fuel injection controller
replaces the original equipment (OE) Delphi® controller
on 2001-2007 Harley-Davidson motorcycles with fuel
injected Twin Cam 88 engines. The term TCFI is
used throughout this document as a generic term
and refers to the new TCFI IID controller unless
otherwise noted.
[color=#FF0000]The TCFI is not intended for stock engines. The
TCFI solves tuning problems with highly modified
engines. Competitive “band-aid” products that interface
to the Delphi® controller still rely on speed-density fuel
control. Long duration/high overlap camshafts wreak
havoc with manifold pressure - especially at idle and
cruise RPM. Speed-density based fuel control simply
can’t cope.
http://www.daytona-twintec.com/downl...structions.pdf
ORIGINAL: fimduc
Good catch Ram on the security function... I covered that with DTT today on the phone and was given absolute assurance that security and everything else works just like OEM when you replace the ECM with their TFI. Same thing when you use the Thundermax controller from Zippers as it replaces the ECM too, but in the case of Zippers they do not let you have access to the software......only the reseller/dealer who pay a subscription fee get that .
Good catch Ram on the security function... I covered that with DTT today on the phone and was given absolute assurance that security and everything else works just like OEM when you replace the ECM with their TFI. Same thing when you use the Thundermax controller from Zippers as it replaces the ECM too, but in the case of Zippers they do not let you have access to the software......only the reseller/dealer who pay a subscription fee get that .
#35
08-18-2006 | 02:21 AM
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From: Northern Illinois
RE: Closed Loop Tuning
Neither the Thundermax or the DTT module can offer these features. The SERT is the only way to go if tuned properly.
The 2007 version of the Tuner software adds the ability to turn ON/OFF the ‘Engine Idle Temperature Management System’ (EITMS) that is described on p.13 - 14 of the manual. The feature is found in the ‘ECM Tuning Constants’ table and is located just beneath the ‘Knock Control’ box.
ENGINE IDLE TEMPERATURE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM
Model Year 2007 Big Twin Vehicles:
For those riders who frequently find themselves in riding conditions where the vehicle is subjected to prolonged idle conditions, an optional ‘Engine Idle Temperature Management System’ (EITMS) is available. This feature offers limited rear cylinder cooling with the vehicle stopped while the engine is left at idle.
Please note the following:
Customer benefits - If a customer experiences frequent riding conditions where prolonged idle conditions create excessive engine heat, this calibration offers limited rear cylinder cooling with the vehicle stopped and engine at idle. While enabled, the customer may notice a unique exhaust odor which may be objectionable. The EITMS does not address engine heat issues resulting from other operating conditions.
Additionally, the user can adjust the ECM Tuning Constants, such as engine displacement and fuel injector rate and they can toggle the knock sensor ON/OFF and set engine rpm limit.
In either the Basic or Advanced Tuning Modes the user makes edits to the tables desired, saves the new file they created and then programs the ECM with the new calibration.
Data Mode Program
The Harley-Davidson Screamin' Eagle Data Mode Program is a data acquisition program that can be used to record over 20-different types of engine and vehicle data from the vehicle’s ECM. The user can record data periods up to 30-minutes for tuning or troubleshooting purposes while testing the bike on a closed-course track or chassis dynamometer. Three mini-programs within the Data Mode program provide the tuner with methods to assess and compare vehicle performance.
The 2007 version of the Tuner software adds the ability to turn ON/OFF the ‘Engine Idle Temperature Management System’ (EITMS) that is described on p.13 - 14 of the manual. The feature is found in the ‘ECM Tuning Constants’ table and is located just beneath the ‘Knock Control’ box.
ENGINE IDLE TEMPERATURE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM
Model Year 2007 Big Twin Vehicles:
For those riders who frequently find themselves in riding conditions where the vehicle is subjected to prolonged idle conditions, an optional ‘Engine Idle Temperature Management System’ (EITMS) is available. This feature offers limited rear cylinder cooling with the vehicle stopped while the engine is left at idle.
Please note the following:
Customer benefits - If a customer experiences frequent riding conditions where prolonged idle conditions create excessive engine heat, this calibration offers limited rear cylinder cooling with the vehicle stopped and engine at idle. While enabled, the customer may notice a unique exhaust odor which may be objectionable. The EITMS does not address engine heat issues resulting from other operating conditions.
Additionally, the user can adjust the ECM Tuning Constants, such as engine displacement and fuel injector rate and they can toggle the knock sensor ON/OFF and set engine rpm limit.
In either the Basic or Advanced Tuning Modes the user makes edits to the tables desired, saves the new file they created and then programs the ECM with the new calibration.
Data Mode Program
The Harley-Davidson Screamin' Eagle Data Mode Program is a data acquisition program that can be used to record over 20-different types of engine and vehicle data from the vehicle’s ECM. The user can record data periods up to 30-minutes for tuning or troubleshooting purposes while testing the bike on a closed-course track or chassis dynamometer. Three mini-programs within the Data Mode program provide the tuner with methods to assess and compare vehicle performance.
#36
08-18-2006 | 10:32 AM
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RE: Closed Loop Tuning
Why is it that HD with the superior SERT for performance tuning does not incorporate the ability to have a wide band closed loop system so that all this tuning can be performed other than on a dyno? The data logging feature of the SERT is definitly a plus but you get all that with a DTT as well. The engine idel mgmt feature sounds like a nice feature but is it something the end user can toggle on/off or is this a dealer issue. Can't say that feature would be all that important to me.
How soon is Zippers going to start using the Bosch sensors in their system? Those guys being engine builders and being just a couple hours away is appealing and it is good to know that they are going to jump in on the performance closed loop tuning.
How soon is Zippers going to start using the Bosch sensors in their system? Those guys being engine builders and being just a couple hours away is appealing and it is good to know that they are going to jump in on the performance closed loop tuning.
#38
08-18-2006 | 04:07 PM
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RE: Closed Loop Tuning
Me too, I talked to John at Zippers and said watch the web site and the wide band O2 sensors will beome available in about 30 days....apparently they are inproduction now , however John could not offer and pricing info. My guess is they will come in some where around $200. Like you said the Zippers ECM has always been able to read )2 sensors and had a closed loop aspect to the ECM...but Zippers sees this as a market has opened up with the 07 Harleys having the pipes w/ O2 and with every major pipe mfg now adding that feature to their line as they re-engineer the pipes for the 07's. Looks like one of the good things about the 07 changes is we are all going to get better access to choices for automatic tuning products.
#39
08-18-2006 | 04:18 PM
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RE: Closed Loop Tuning
this is the quote he gave me via email about the closed loop add-on to an existing Thundermax. Got this Tuesday this week...
"The cost of the Closed Loop Auto Tuner System will be about $399.99.
Check the web sites and keep in touch with us and we will let you know when
there is new information for you.
Thank You
Pete Stewart
410-379-0909 ext 127
pete.s@zippersperformance.com"
"The cost of the Closed Loop Auto Tuner System will be about $399.99.
Check the web sites and keep in touch with us and we will let you know when
there is new information for you.
Thank You
Pete Stewart
410-379-0909 ext 127
pete.s@zippersperformance.com"
#40
08-18-2006 | 04:31 PM
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RE: Closed Loop Tuning
Wow, about twice as much as I thought...that is going to push the Thundermax plus WEGO up to the $800 mark......Daytona sells their Wego Bosch system for $340, but the combo of ECM and WEGO is $849. Looks like over the next several months we should see some guys on this forum with some direct experience with these systems. Okie did you ever have a PCIII or SERT before you did the Thundermax? Have you had all positives with your Thundermax and dealing with Zippers?