RED ALAERT Cam Swap Help Please@#$%!!!
#141
05-26-2010, 09:26 PM
Okay, Sickbagger, I confess I don't understand this. I don't have the cams to look at, but I thought the 255's were a one-piece grind, presumably made from a single chunk of steel and ground at the instruction of a computer--i.e. not the pressed-together pieces that make up the stock cams.
This is true
So by "large cog" do you mean the key on the splined section of the rear cam?
Yes that is what I mean.
Later on you said it might've been the sprocket, and I presume you mean the inner sprocket on the cam, so how could that be off since it is a symmetrical unit with equal-sized cogs all-round.
No not the inner sprockets at all they are all good
Was it the mark on this sprocket that was off?
Yes and no. The key on the splined cam is off which in turn throws the mark off on the rear cam outer sprocket in relation to the camp plate mark and crank mark.
I'm probably dense and am probably missing something obvious, but I'd really like to get a grip on this and appreciate your patience.
Not dense from what I have read iclick, It is my discriptions that are throwing you the curves. I am here till we all learn and save another sole out this one.
Also, what is the best method for a person to determine if the cams are made right and the usual procedure for installation can be followed?
The fastest way to determine if these cams is exactly what TT296 says. "some of our cams are marked at the 4th groove clockwise from the key on the splined cam they should be marked at the 6th groove clockwise of the key on the splined cam. If you only have 4 grooves from the key on the splines you have these cams. BUT what the TT296 does not tell you is how to fix this problem it LEADS you to beleive that you simply align the cams with the dot on the front cam to the 6th groove on the rear cam and install the rear chain. But when you do this you will see that the lobe alignment as compared to your stock cams if you stack them on top of each other to compare go WAY WRONG. Completly humuors is if you continue to put it together this way like I did you will find that when you place the cam gears on and the timing marks magically line up between the rear cam mark, crank mark and the cam plate mark. You think oh boy thank God for that TT296 whewww!!!! WRONG rear cam is still out of time!
At this point I don't have a clue, and again I'm glad the cams I put in my bike and another set in a friend's bike were correct, as it never occurred to me that they could be faulty.
This is true
So by "large cog" do you mean the key on the splined section of the rear cam?
Yes that is what I mean.
Later on you said it might've been the sprocket, and I presume you mean the inner sprocket on the cam, so how could that be off since it is a symmetrical unit with equal-sized cogs all-round.
No not the inner sprockets at all they are all good
Was it the mark on this sprocket that was off?
Yes and no. The key on the splined cam is off which in turn throws the mark off on the rear cam outer sprocket in relation to the camp plate mark and crank mark.
I'm probably dense and am probably missing something obvious, but I'd really like to get a grip on this and appreciate your patience.
Not dense from what I have read iclick, It is my discriptions that are throwing you the curves. I am here till we all learn and save another sole out this one.
Also, what is the best method for a person to determine if the cams are made right and the usual procedure for installation can be followed?
The fastest way to determine if these cams is exactly what TT296 says. "some of our cams are marked at the 4th groove clockwise from the key on the splined cam they should be marked at the 6th groove clockwise of the key on the splined cam. If you only have 4 grooves from the key on the splines you have these cams. BUT what the TT296 does not tell you is how to fix this problem it LEADS you to beleive that you simply align the cams with the dot on the front cam to the 6th groove on the rear cam and install the rear chain. But when you do this you will see that the lobe alignment as compared to your stock cams if you stack them on top of each other to compare go WAY WRONG. Completly humuors is if you continue to put it together this way like I did you will find that when you place the cam gears on and the timing marks magically line up between the rear cam mark, crank mark and the cam plate mark. You think oh boy thank God for that TT296 whewww!!!! WRONG rear cam is still out of time!
At this point I don't have a clue, and again I'm glad the cams I put in my bike and another set in a friend's bike were correct, as it never occurred to me that they could be faulty.
I atthached a picture if not I will come back but what it shows is my new timing mark 4 valleys counter clockwise of the stock mark on the rear cam gear. This is with the bike all put together so I could not get the timing to stop right where they are all lined up to show you with the valve spring pressures but you can see with rotation they do line up.
Let me know if anyone need further info don't be shy I only had to cry for a month! So if you buy from a private person get a shot of the timing mark and tell you will give 50 bucks for them because the timing marks are all wrong!!!
Last edited by SICKBAGGER; 05-26-2010 at 09:46 PM.
#143
05-27-2010, 08:31 AM
#145
05-27-2010, 08:46 AM
#146
05-27-2010, 11:34 AM
Road Captain
#147
05-27-2010, 01:18 PM
Okay, tell me if this is the correct step-by-step procedure for checking and, if necessary, correcting:
1. Align the dots on the inner-sprockets as per the manual, install the inner chain, slip the cams into the cam plate, install the inner tensioner, and bolt the cam plate in place.
2. If the dot on the rear cam visible from the outside is on the 6th valley CW of the splined key you have a properly made cam and should follow the manual from here on out. OTOH if the dot is on the 4th valley CW of the key you know you have a defective cam, and should continue on to Step 3.
3. Install the outer sprockets on the crank and rear cam and bolt them in.
4. Make a new dot four valleys CCW from the original dot on the outer rear cam sprocket.
5. Line up the dots (new dot on outer rear-cam sprocket with original dot on crank sprocket), install the chain, tensioner, etc. and follow the manual for re-assembly.
Right? Now, what worries me is what if there are variations on the the factory screw-ups? IOW, we're assuming the factory screwed up a small number of cams in the same way. I think I would place the stock cams on end with the new cams beside them with lobes oriented in the same direction. Then make sure the dots are lined up the same for both pairs of cams. If they do you should know they are ground correctly. It would seem that even if the error was only one valley you could see it by eyeballing it like this and you'd know where the new dot should be placed on the outer rear-cam sprocket.
1. Align the dots on the inner-sprockets as per the manual, install the inner chain, slip the cams into the cam plate, install the inner tensioner, and bolt the cam plate in place.
2. If the dot on the rear cam visible from the outside is on the 6th valley CW of the splined key you have a properly made cam and should follow the manual from here on out. OTOH if the dot is on the 4th valley CW of the key you know you have a defective cam, and should continue on to Step 3.
3. Install the outer sprockets on the crank and rear cam and bolt them in.
4. Make a new dot four valleys CCW from the original dot on the outer rear cam sprocket.
5. Line up the dots (new dot on outer rear-cam sprocket with original dot on crank sprocket), install the chain, tensioner, etc. and follow the manual for re-assembly.
Right? Now, what worries me is what if there are variations on the the factory screw-ups? IOW, we're assuming the factory screwed up a small number of cams in the same way. I think I would place the stock cams on end with the new cams beside them with lobes oriented in the same direction. Then make sure the dots are lined up the same for both pairs of cams. If they do you should know they are ground correctly. It would seem that even if the error was only one valley you could see it by eyeballing it like this and you'd know where the new dot should be placed on the outer rear-cam sprocket.
Last edited by iclick; 05-27-2010 at 01:42 PM.
#148
05-27-2010, 01:47 PM
Sickbagger can now say he now knows the cam chest inside and out and could probably change cams blindfolded! He's made quite a learning experience out of this, although I'm sure his cam-upgrade has gone far outside the original budget. The upside is that he is now a cam-upgrade expert and we can ask him any question knowing he'll know the answer. Are you ready for that, Donny?
#149
05-27-2010, 01:50 PM
Thanks I can be somewhat hard headed when it comes to giving up especiall if its the wife the kids or my baby! Please PM me the next time you come my way we will ride show you some cool places to ride around here. Where are you at?
#150
05-27-2010, 01:57 PM
Okay, tell me if this is the correct step-by-step procedure for checking and, if necessary, correcting:
1. Align the dots on the inner-sprockets as per the manual, install the inner chain, slip the cams into the cam plate, install the inner tensioner, and bolt the cam plate in place.
2. If the dot on the rear cam visible from the outside is on the 6th valley CW of the splined key you have a properly made cam and should follow the manual from here on out. OTOH if the dot is on the 4th valley CW of the key you know you have a defective cam, and should continue on to Step 3.
3. Install the outer sprockets on the crank and rear cam and bolt them in.
4. Make a new dot four valleys CCW from the original dot on the outer rear cam sprocket.
5. Line up the dots (new dot on outer rear-cam sprocket with original dot on crank sprocket), install the chain, tensioner, etc. and follow the manual for re-assembly.
Right? Now, what worries me is what if there are variations on the the factory screw-ups? IOW, we're assuming the factory screwed up a small number of cams in the same way. I think I would place the stock cams on end with the new cams beside them with lobes oriented in the same direction. Then make sure the dots are lined up the same for both pairs of cams. If they do you should know they are ground correctly. It would seem that even if the error was only one valley you could see it by eyeballing it like this and you'd know where the new dot should be placed on the outer rear-cam sprocket.
1. Align the dots on the inner-sprockets as per the manual, install the inner chain, slip the cams into the cam plate, install the inner tensioner, and bolt the cam plate in place.
2. If the dot on the rear cam visible from the outside is on the 6th valley CW of the splined key you have a properly made cam and should follow the manual from here on out. OTOH if the dot is on the 4th valley CW of the key you know you have a defective cam, and should continue on to Step 3.
3. Install the outer sprockets on the crank and rear cam and bolt them in.
4. Make a new dot four valleys CCW from the original dot on the outer rear cam sprocket.
5. Line up the dots (new dot on outer rear-cam sprocket with original dot on crank sprocket), install the chain, tensioner, etc. and follow the manual for re-assembly.
Right? Now, what worries me is what if there are variations on the the factory screw-ups? IOW, we're assuming the factory screwed up a small number of cams in the same way. I think I would place the stock cams on end with the new cams beside them with lobes oriented in the same direction. Then make sure the dots are lined up the same for both pairs of cams. If they do you should know they are ground correctly. It would seem that even if the error was only one valley you could see it by eyeballing it like this and you'd know where the new dot should be placed on the outer rear-cam sprocket.
Iclick,
You have got it all down perfecvtly, even if the cams are different than mine just make sure the lobe TDC's are all in the same compared to the stock cams and the the cam gear goes on wherever it may be 1,2,3,4 valleys CCW. Because you have known 3 out of 4 timing marks you just make the 4th one where ever the cam gear goes on and that's your new 4th timing mark! TA DA!!! I sure hope we save someone on this if anyone finds it please come back to this post.