Add On Anti-Lock Brakes (kinda like)?
#11
08-09-2006, 06:26 PM
RE: Add On Anti-Lock Brakes (kinda like)?
excellent item. Thanks for taking the time to research this. I have found that it is very easy to lock up a rear wheel in an emergency situation. once that back wheel is locked, you have two problems on your mind, avoiding a collision, and also controlling the skid. It would be great to have something to help lessen the risk. ive owned a sportster and now own a dyna. i have noticed that the dyna is much more prone to wheel lock than the sportster
#12
08-09-2006, 08:13 PM
RE: Add On Anti-Lock Brakes (kinda like)?
Great post glad to hear new info on braking performance which is even more improtant than all the foucs the forum gets about HP and Torque upgrades. I do not hold out much hope for this device being worth a damn, but it makes for an interesting read. Harley has come a long way inthe braking department fromthe single rotor single puck systems on the heavyweights just a few years ago.
I have owned several Beemers and they all had ABS and it is a fantastic system. One of the main reasons I bought a Beemer was the ABS system. I remeber someone saying years ago inthe racing world that the invetntion of ABS brakes turns your Grandmother inot Mario ANdretti when braking. It is that good. We have all had the system kick in on our cars now that it is a defacto standard on all cars. BMW essentialy pioneered ABS in cars and they have that engineering down pat and each year seem to make it a bit better on their bikes If you ever get a chance to drop by a BMW dealer for a test ride ( and they all let you test ride any model any day you want) give it try and you will be amazed.
I thought when HD tried it out last year on the Cop bikes that it would make it's way over to the Touring line in a year or two, but no dice. Don't know what the big deal is as the technology has been around for several years and the system fits nicely even on the BMW naked bikes so why HD needs to fill up half a saddle bag with the parts is mind numbing. I love my HD SG but the day HD gets a competent ABS system available I will make the switch in a hearbeat. Are you listening MOCO!! Heck they went to Porsche for the V-rod engine, well they ought do a deal with the Germans on the brakes and we would all be better off.
I have owned several Beemers and they all had ABS and it is a fantastic system. One of the main reasons I bought a Beemer was the ABS system. I remeber someone saying years ago inthe racing world that the invetntion of ABS brakes turns your Grandmother inot Mario ANdretti when braking. It is that good. We have all had the system kick in on our cars now that it is a defacto standard on all cars. BMW essentialy pioneered ABS in cars and they have that engineering down pat and each year seem to make it a bit better on their bikes If you ever get a chance to drop by a BMW dealer for a test ride ( and they all let you test ride any model any day you want) give it try and you will be amazed.
I thought when HD tried it out last year on the Cop bikes that it would make it's way over to the Touring line in a year or two, but no dice. Don't know what the big deal is as the technology has been around for several years and the system fits nicely even on the BMW naked bikes so why HD needs to fill up half a saddle bag with the parts is mind numbing. I love my HD SG but the day HD gets a competent ABS system available I will make the switch in a hearbeat. Are you listening MOCO!! Heck they went to Porsche for the V-rod engine, well they ought do a deal with the Germans on the brakes and we would all be better off.
#13
08-10-2006, 04:02 AM
RE: Add On Anti-Lock Brakes (kinda like)?
BMW does have some AMAZING BRAKES!!! I have a R1200C , And I tried to Lock it up (Rear brake only) On a wet paved road. It just stopped! BMW is a very safe bike, Most of em are ugly as Hell!
ORIGINAL: fimduc
Great post glad to hear new info on braking performance which is even more improtant than all the foucs the forum gets about HP and Torque upgrades. I do not hold out much hope for this device being worth a damn, but it makes for an interesting read. Harley has come a long way inthe braking department fromthe single rotor single puck systems on the heavyweights just a few years ago.
I have owned several Beemers and they all had ABS and it is a fantastic system. One of the main reasons I bought a Beemer was the ABS system. I remeber someone saying years ago inthe racing world that the invetntion of ABS brakes turns your Grandmother inot Mario ANdretti when braking. It is that good. We have all had the system kick in on our cars now that it is a defacto standard on all cars. BMW essentialy pioneered ABS in cars and they have that engineering down pat and each year seem to make it a bit better on their bikes If you ever get a chance to drop by a BMW dealer for a test ride ( and they all let you test ride any model any day you want) give it try and you will be amazed.
I thought when HD tried it out last year on the Cop bikes that it would make it's way over to the Touring line in a year or two, but no dice. Don't know what the big deal is as the technology has been around for several years and the system fits nicely even on the BMW naked bikes so why HD needs to fill up half a saddle bag with the parts is mind numbing. I love my HD SG but the day HD gets a competent ABS system available I will make the switch in a hearbeat. Are you listening MOCO!! Heck they went to Porsche for the V-rod engine, well they ought do a deal with the Germans on the brakes and we would all be better off.
Great post glad to hear new info on braking performance which is even more improtant than all the foucs the forum gets about HP and Torque upgrades. I do not hold out much hope for this device being worth a damn, but it makes for an interesting read. Harley has come a long way inthe braking department fromthe single rotor single puck systems on the heavyweights just a few years ago.
I have owned several Beemers and they all had ABS and it is a fantastic system. One of the main reasons I bought a Beemer was the ABS system. I remeber someone saying years ago inthe racing world that the invetntion of ABS brakes turns your Grandmother inot Mario ANdretti when braking. It is that good. We have all had the system kick in on our cars now that it is a defacto standard on all cars. BMW essentialy pioneered ABS in cars and they have that engineering down pat and each year seem to make it a bit better on their bikes If you ever get a chance to drop by a BMW dealer for a test ride ( and they all let you test ride any model any day you want) give it try and you will be amazed.
I thought when HD tried it out last year on the Cop bikes that it would make it's way over to the Touring line in a year or two, but no dice. Don't know what the big deal is as the technology has been around for several years and the system fits nicely even on the BMW naked bikes so why HD needs to fill up half a saddle bag with the parts is mind numbing. I love my HD SG but the day HD gets a competent ABS system available I will make the switch in a hearbeat. Are you listening MOCO!! Heck they went to Porsche for the V-rod engine, well they ought do a deal with the Germans on the brakes and we would all be better off.
#14
08-10-2006, 11:08 AM
RE: Add On Anti-Lock Brakes (kinda like)?
10-4 on the ugly part....especially the R1200C which they quit making. We better be glad that the War Ended in Africa as Harley had the XA model all ready to go to replace the 90,000 WL they had in service in Europe.......the XA with horizontal jugs and shaft drive was a mere copy of the the BMW at the time. HD had an inital order from the Army for over 100,000 of these machines........of course the order got canceld and the V-twin lives on......who knows how the XA could have changed HD back in the 40's....anyone ever seen an XA in person?
I think HD could get a bunch of new sales from a properly offered ABS system on the Touring line....so get busy MOCO and gives us another reason to trade or upgrade
I think HD could get a bunch of new sales from a properly offered ABS system on the Touring line....so get busy MOCO and gives us another reason to trade or upgrade
#15
09-08-2006, 02:40 AM
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RE: Add On Anti-Lock Brakes (kinda like)?
I'm back. Still working on this project, so it's time for an update. Talked to the TCB folks a couple of weeks ago. They wanted to send me a couple more units to get the front done, and to be able to continue my testing and get the right unit (color) at the right wheel. Package arrived about 2 weeks ago. Thanks Mark/Juha.
As a review, here is how the four "colors" are supposed to limit wheel slip:
Green - allows the most amount of wheel "slip"/least likelyhood of lockup
Red - allows moderate wheel "slip", but less than the green
Orange - allows even less wheel "slip"
Blue - allows the least amount of wheel "slip"
Read "slip" as sort of anti-lock braking.
In early August, I put a "red" on the rear caliper. See the initial posts for my thoughts on that.
Now I have one of each color, so I can work on getting this thing fine tuned.
I decided to start with an Orange up front. Again, the install is easy. Just remove the banjo bolt from either the master cylinder or the brake caliper, add the tcb with 2 new crush washers, and torque it down according to the service manual. You need a 3/4" deep socket and a foot pounds torque wrench. While I was doing this, I wanted to replace the DOT 5 fluid throughout like I did on the rear. I also wanted to clean the calipers/pistons on each side. I've read where they can get all gunked up over time, and make the brake lever/pedal feel mushy.
On the front, I could put one unit on the master cylinder, or put on two units, one on each caliper. I chose to go with one on the MC.
Here's what I did:
First, I removed the banjo bolt from the MC, and added the orange tcb with new washers. Then, I opened the master cylinder, and used a bulb syringe to remove all the fluid. Then I filled the MC with new fluid (purple). I then used my mighty vac to bleed each caliper, and pulled the new fluid down until the old yellow DOT 5 got purple (meaning I removed all the old fluid). I had to top off the MC a couple of times as I did this.
Next, I did this caliper/piston cleaning trick I've read about. Take one caliper off the disk, and pump the brake lever until the pads extend and touch each other. Place a bucket under the caliper, and spray brake cleaner around the pistons. It cleaned out A LOT of gunk. The bottom of the bucket was black with grime/dirt. Next, pry the pads back apart, and put the caliper over the disk. Take off the other caliper and repeat. Mine were so dirty, I did each one twice.
I put everything back together, and I had no brake lever pressure. I worked for a while with the mighty vac, trying to bleed each side some more. Still air in the system/no lever pressure. Time to try another trick I've read about: Tie the lever pulled in, and let it sit for a day or so. I was skeptical. Came back the next afternoon, untied the lever, and tried to pull it. WOW, better than ever. Much more solid than before. When I did the rear last month, I got it blead easily with the mighty vac, but the front takes some extra work. Before all this, I could pull the lever close to the grip for power stops. I guess after a year, I just thought it was normal. Now it is very firm, like it's supposed to be, I reckon.
Here are two photos of my front MC with the tcb on:
I took a short slow ride to check all of my brake/bleeding work last evening, and all felt well. I took a nice long ride this morning to Harper's Ferry and back. What a beautiful morning and ride. (There were ALOT of bikes around the Harper's Ferry area this morning. A rally or something?)
Everything brake wise felt good. I have decided to put a green on the rear, after thinking about my results from the red I put there earlier. With the red, it was still too easy to lock up my rear brak
As a review, here is how the four "colors" are supposed to limit wheel slip:
Green - allows the most amount of wheel "slip"/least likelyhood of lockup
Red - allows moderate wheel "slip", but less than the green
Orange - allows even less wheel "slip"
Blue - allows the least amount of wheel "slip"
Read "slip" as sort of anti-lock braking.
In early August, I put a "red" on the rear caliper. See the initial posts for my thoughts on that.
Now I have one of each color, so I can work on getting this thing fine tuned.
I decided to start with an Orange up front. Again, the install is easy. Just remove the banjo bolt from either the master cylinder or the brake caliper, add the tcb with 2 new crush washers, and torque it down according to the service manual. You need a 3/4" deep socket and a foot pounds torque wrench. While I was doing this, I wanted to replace the DOT 5 fluid throughout like I did on the rear. I also wanted to clean the calipers/pistons on each side. I've read where they can get all gunked up over time, and make the brake lever/pedal feel mushy.
On the front, I could put one unit on the master cylinder, or put on two units, one on each caliper. I chose to go with one on the MC.
Here's what I did:
First, I removed the banjo bolt from the MC, and added the orange tcb with new washers. Then, I opened the master cylinder, and used a bulb syringe to remove all the fluid. Then I filled the MC with new fluid (purple). I then used my mighty vac to bleed each caliper, and pulled the new fluid down until the old yellow DOT 5 got purple (meaning I removed all the old fluid). I had to top off the MC a couple of times as I did this.
Next, I did this caliper/piston cleaning trick I've read about. Take one caliper off the disk, and pump the brake lever until the pads extend and touch each other. Place a bucket under the caliper, and spray brake cleaner around the pistons. It cleaned out A LOT of gunk. The bottom of the bucket was black with grime/dirt. Next, pry the pads back apart, and put the caliper over the disk. Take off the other caliper and repeat. Mine were so dirty, I did each one twice.
I put everything back together, and I had no brake lever pressure. I worked for a while with the mighty vac, trying to bleed each side some more. Still air in the system/no lever pressure. Time to try another trick I've read about: Tie the lever pulled in, and let it sit for a day or so. I was skeptical. Came back the next afternoon, untied the lever, and tried to pull it. WOW, better than ever. Much more solid than before. When I did the rear last month, I got it blead easily with the mighty vac, but the front takes some extra work. Before all this, I could pull the lever close to the grip for power stops. I guess after a year, I just thought it was normal. Now it is very firm, like it's supposed to be, I reckon.
Here are two photos of my front MC with the tcb on:
I took a short slow ride to check all of my brake/bleeding work last evening, and all felt well. I took a nice long ride this morning to Harper's Ferry and back. What a beautiful morning and ride. (There were ALOT of bikes around the Harper's Ferry area this morning. A rally or something?)
Everything brake wise felt good. I have decided to put a green on the rear, after thinking about my results from the red I put there earlier. With the red, it was still too easy to lock up my rear brak
#16
09-08-2006, 05:18 AM
Road Captain
RE: Add On Anti-Lock Brakes (kinda like)?
very interesting.....
yes practicing hard stops is great, and with more repititon you will react better in panic situations subconsiously...
also...you CAN let off the rear brake while in a skid without highsiding.... practice it, if you are square, you can let off.... now dont go dumping your scoots cause i said you can do it.... in some situations after parking lot practice you will know when you can....i used to do over 50 mph rear skids, and let off all the time....
what happens is the harder you are on the front the lesser you will be on the rear to stay just at impending skid....if you add more presure to the front brake and keep the rear the same it still may skid due to weight transfer
yes practicing hard stops is great, and with more repititon you will react better in panic situations subconsiously...
also...you CAN let off the rear brake while in a skid without highsiding.... practice it, if you are square, you can let off.... now dont go dumping your scoots cause i said you can do it.... in some situations after parking lot practice you will know when you can....i used to do over 50 mph rear skids, and let off all the time....
what happens is the harder you are on the front the lesser you will be on the rear to stay just at impending skid....if you add more presure to the front brake and keep the rear the same it still may skid due to weight transfer
#18
03-30-2008, 09:43 AM
Road Captain
#19
03-30-2008, 11:49 AM
Cruiser
RE: Add On Anti-Lock Brakes (kinda like)?
Hey Olde,
My first thought is that these have as much chance of working asdeer whistles do. Then I thought that maybe Doug bought it during his experiment, since he never completed his report. However, I see that Doug signed on to the forum in March.
I went to Lifesaver's testimonial page at http://www.lifesavertcb.com/testimonials.html I see that one of the testimoniers (I think that I just made up a word) works at Twin Cities HD in Lakeville, MN. I talked to a tech named Dave when I was there last week. Maybe its the same guy.
My point are: Send Doug a PM. Maybe he will complete his report. Also, contact Dave Fuchs at TCHD. His contact numbers are:
Dave Fuchs[/align]Lakeville Harley-Davidson[/align]Head Technician for 32 years[/align]http://www.tchd.com/[/align]Phone: (952) 898-4515
[/align]OD[/align][/align]
My first thought is that these have as much chance of working asdeer whistles do. Then I thought that maybe Doug bought it during his experiment, since he never completed his report. However, I see that Doug signed on to the forum in March.
I went to Lifesaver's testimonial page at http://www.lifesavertcb.com/testimonials.html I see that one of the testimoniers (I think that I just made up a word) works at Twin Cities HD in Lakeville, MN. I talked to a tech named Dave when I was there last week. Maybe its the same guy.
My point are: Send Doug a PM. Maybe he will complete his report. Also, contact Dave Fuchs at TCHD. His contact numbers are:
Dave Fuchs[/align]Lakeville Harley-Davidson[/align]Head Technician for 32 years[/align]http://www.tchd.com/[/align]Phone: (952) 898-4515
[/align]OD[/align][/align]
#20
03-30-2008, 02:29 PM
RE: Add On Anti-Lock Brakes (kinda like)?
Here is another company with the same type of device I have been looking at:
http://www.tcbbrakesystems.com/index.html
These deviceshavevery interesting ideas. Just waiting for more testing to make a decision.....
http://www.tcbbrakesystems.com/index.html
These deviceshavevery interesting ideas. Just waiting for more testing to make a decision.....