I think you're mixing me up with another poster (swestbrook60). I never made any remarks about how well thought out your comments are. I have no issue with any of your comments as I actually agree with many of them. To be fair, I've primarily shared the facts and not my opinions.

I haven't said anything about admiration although I do admire people that are williing to work multiple jobs to give their families a better life. There were many times in my early career when I worked multiple jobs and I never looked at the companies I worked for as "not paying me enough". That's the entitlement mentality I've been talking about.

Until guy's like you are better able to understand what's going on and what it will take to reverse the situation, I'm afraid the most you'll be able to do about the situation is bitch about greedy corporations and greedy executives taking even MORE jobs overseas. Unfortunately that will mean even more firends, family and other Americans losing their jobs while union workers keep repeating their mantra that they're entitled because "it's in their contract".

 

It's obvious we're never going to agree on this. I grew up in a middle class family with parents who struggled with their own business. At the time I was strongly anti-union. Then I got a union job, and over the years both negotiated contracts and took on a leadership role in that union. We used "Interest Based Negotiations" and discovered that the negotiations were already massively stacked against us before they ever began. We uncovered lies and many discrepancies in the bookkeeping, we found ourselves maligned for the company's problems, usually followed by massive bonuses for higher-ups. I realize now that blaming the unions is one of the simplest ways to deflect responsibility for unethical decisions being made at the highest levels.

I have also worked multiple jobs over the years, sometimes using vacation from one so I can work the other. I can't stand entitlement thinking, even as an executive member in the union.

I'm reminded of issues we have here with migrant workers and their treatment by large business. 3rd world conditions, unfair and unsafe labor practices, paying pennies on the dollar. It seems like the products they're producing would cost next to nothing with the money saved by circumventing those crappy union workers. But no, any money saved is pocketed by greedy execs and/or used to pay off politicians so the game can continue. And American taxpayers end up paying all the benefits for these workers, mostly illegal, an absolute coup for the business. Without unions these labor practices would be occurring almost universally, and not just with migrant workers. The bottom line is the almighty $$$, and if that means enslaving American workers so be it.

 

I'm with you Weezo, We just ought to agree to disagree. Heatwave you seem like vary intelligent person but your not going to change my way of thinking. Bad and greedy companies have created unions. People just don't go out and organize unions for the hell of it. I know alot of poeple who work non union and are happier than hell. Why, because they get treated fair. They wouldn't even dream of going union, The owners are not greedy douche bags. Greed my friend is what is destroying this great nation. Now I have put almost 400 miles on my bike and the weekend is not over yet. Plus this blue collar guy has got to back down in the coal mine tomarrow so you guys all have electricity. I'm over this thread, Go ride your bikes for god sakes.

 

In one of the companies I worked for the union was brought in over a 10 minute break, I kid you not. While some here may have had opposing experiences, my personal view of unions is very negative and I will admit that. In my company, they were merging 2 companies and while leaving both manufacturing plants operating (10 miles apart) they were adjusting the basic non-union work rules. One plant had a formal 10 minute break in the morning and the other had informal breaks you could take whenever you wanted one. I worked at the informal plant and believe me this had never been an issue for its 20 years of existence. The formal plant workers view this as a loss of a benefit and called union reps in. Now both facilities are union plants and the benefits in the contract were actually less than what they all were getting when non-union. The bad part of this is that the time it took to manufacture every product we made doubled with a union workforce. Shop workers were being threatened to slow down and work the "approved union pace". It went as far as one union steward being caught trying to injure if not kill a non-union worker (Texas is a right to work state) by loosening the chuck on this worker's lathe while he was at lunch. Fortunately he was seen doing this and they told management.

The result of this was increased prices due to the doubled labor costs, so sales went from $20 million a year down to last I heard it was $300k a year and of those 200 workers, 5 are still employed. In this case the union really helped the worker...got them all laid off and the company did not move overseas, it went out of business for the most part. As many examples as you can give of greed playing a part, there are as many examples like this where greed had nothing to do with it.

Some here are trying to paint all companies with the same brush and that is wrong. There are bad companies with bad management, but there are many more good companies being managed by good ethical people. Conversely there are good unions I suppose and bad ones as well. In my experiences I have never been mistreated by a company and always felt I was earning what I was worth, probably more in some cases.

 

I understand your point of view and its a fair position. While we may not agree on the solution, I think we can all agree the current path is not a good one. Either we find a different path than the one we're on to get back to a strong and prosperous country....or we don't. The current approach we're taking to our businesses is clearly driving them out of the US, taking jobs and wealth away with them.

Protectionism won't work and would make matters substantially worse IMO. Suggesting greed is the problem also suggests there's no solution since people will be people. We add new taxes and regulations daily particularly under the current administration.

Unfortunately I don't see things getting better, however I do know I had a hell of a first ride of the season with blue skies and June temps in March in NJ. Sometimes its worth just taking things as they are and enjoy the "ride".

 

Sorry I put up the original post. Looks like it has started some heated debates. Last week when this news was flying all over the Milwaukee area I thought I would thought it up here. Never thought it would bring the heat the way it has. Remember, we are all brothers here. We share the love of motorcycles and the ride. Many of us have found other common interest we share as well.

T

 

LOL, you could start a thread about Beef vs Chicken and it would start heated debates on here.

 

Good point!

 

I don't feel any deep animosity toward anyone here, it's all a matter of different life experiences and opinions. When everyone agrees on everything here it will be a sign that the world's most powerful and free Nation has died.