If you adjust the Throttle table without additional tuning you can easily have bogging or other issues. The lookup tables are no longer calibrated properly as much of the interpretation in the calibration has changed. The ECM controls the throttle blade for several reasons. The primary control function is to limit velocity and uses strategies to both smooth throttle response (similar to a CV carb with controlled slide lift) as well as for torque management, which for example can help control driveline lash. It is also in its strategy to help other factors such as fuel mileage. When you adjust the Throttle table in either TTS or SE Super Tuner you will need to retune your VE tables as they have changed, sometimes greatly. We have seen some positive results from adjusting areas of the Throttle table on bikes we have tuned, but in most cases we have seen the best results with leaving it as set in the base calibration or similar. Remember that V-Tune and Smart Tune can only populate data where the stock NB sensors can measure, and only when the AFR tables are set to 14.6:1 (or its Lamda equivilent on 2010 models) Not an AFR you want to tune a big bore, high compression motor with.

 

It's worth noting that my brother modified the throttle progressivity table ('10 SEST) of his 2009 Ultra to deliver a 1:1 throttle response. He did this as a part of an upgrade with a hi-flow air cleaner and V&H classic slip-ons. No other mechanical changes. He then ran smarttune a couple of times using a number of data runs.

He did not experience any engine bog or negative consequences of the throttle progressivity table changes. Just the opposite. The changes resulted in a much more responsive throttle with the designed throttle lag removed.

I also made the throttle progressivity table a 1:1 ratio on my 2010 SE Ultra with no negative outcome. Only a more responsive throttle. My engine is an upgraded 110 that had been dyno tuned and afterwards I modified the throttle progressivity table. The outcome was definitely better than the stock throttle table settings.

I cannot provide any insight as to why others making this throttle table change would have a negative outcome as the 2 real experiences I'm familiar with could only be described as resulting in better engine responsiveness.

 

It all depends on your calibration and the extent of your build

 

I have put the original progressivity table back in.

My base map came from S&S, I would say they started out with a SE 113 map (UF205006), and modded it for the 124. The throttle progressivity map was unchanged.

Heatwave - Its wrong to call it throttle lag. There is no lag in the response to twist grip changes, it moves as fast as the twist grip, it just doesnt move as far.

I only wanted to change this because I thought it would run better, launch easier etc. But it runs worse, is harder to ride and much harder to launch.

I dont think I will bother tuning this up as I dont hit her in first anyhow, the front wheel lifts or the back spins, so I will just leave it alone.

Lonewolf: It definitely was not tuned properly. As soon as I got the software I could tell that. Basically the dyno guy tuned the WOT and thats it. I have been using smart tune to adjust the part throttle and it has worked wonders.

 

The only way I can describe the difference between the stock settings and 1:1 settings in throttle progressivity is that the stock settings definitely feel like throttle lag when compared with the 1:1 settings. When you "ask" for 100% throttle and you only gett 60%, it will definitely feel like lag when compared to getting 100% throttle. This assumes of course that the bike is properly tuned to use 100% at that rpm (VE and spark advance).

This was true for my brother's stock 2009 Ultra (other than exhaust and A/C) and it was true for my modified 2010 SE Ultra. I've ridden both bikes with stock and modified throttle progressivity tables and would not want to go back to stock.

I would say that its not for everyone. Small increments in throttle definitely make a difference and as Jamie said you will feel more drivetrain lash when riding slow until you hand/head gets calibrated to the 1:1 settings. All I know is that the engine now "jumps to attention" when I want it to, not when a Milwaulkee software engineer wants it to.

Same was true for my brother and trust me...if he didn't prefer the 1:1 settings he would have gone back in a split second.

However, it sounds like you did the right thing by going back to the stock throttle settings if that's where the engine runs better with your current map.

On a separate note, my current SEST map uses 14.3 AFR below 3500rpms and 80% throttle which is still in the closed loop range for 2010. Therefore Smarttune has made slight changes to the VE tables based on my data runs. Each time I've updated the map with Smarttune from these runs, it has made positive changes that I can feel in low speed/low rpm responsiveness.

 

I just had mine on the dyno to double check my V-tuning after switching to the Jackpot mufflers from the Bub 7 stealth mufflers.Dave my indy adjusted the throttle setting to 100% in 80-90-100 range,I think thats how they are in the TTS so it would really open to 100%. This may be what you need to do,the rest of the table was left as it was.

The other thing was to calibrate the O2 sensors to 13.5 to make sure what was dialed in was what we got in the 60-100 range,much to our surprize we were at 14.3 to 15 plus in that range. Dave had to tweak the fuel some and adjust some of the VE numbers to achieve the correct O2.
The point is unless you do this your too lean or too rich which the SERT OR TTS can't tell you.

 

When you ask for 100% and get 60% there is a good chance that the engine cant even tell the difference, let alone you.

Let me explain. At 1200 rpm with lumpy cams and lots of overlap the VE is probably around 70%. Opening the throttle plate 100% would result in a flow of 70% x 1200 x 124 cubes x .5 860 ci/sec.

The 58mm throttle body can flow about 110% x 124 x .5 x 6500 = 7400 ci/sec.

So at 1200 rpm the flow thru the TB is about 12% of the WOT redline flow.

Opening the throttle plate as little as 20% could give you almost exactly the same flow. At low flow rates the resistance of the throttle butterfly isnt significant once it is open past a certian point as the engine simply cant draw enough flow.

You can see this effect when you look at a trend from the data log on the SERT.

At the point in time shown on the attached graph the engine is doing 2794 rpm, the throttle is open 44% and the MAP sensor is showing that the manifold pressure is damn near atmosphere. i.e. the pressure drop across the throttle plate is close enough to zero, the throttle is essentially doing nothing to restrict the engine and it is only open 44%.

So its easy to imagine that at 1200 rpm if the throttle is open more than 20% then its basically the same as being open 100%. Do you follow? It is possible that the difference you are noticing is psychological.

I reloaded the old progressivity table and it is better but still boggy.

I would say the VEs in the map at low revs are too high and too much fuel is being thrown in. I need to tune this up and see if I can dial the bogginess out.

 

King............if you don't like the thought of 14.7PSIA manifold pressure at 44% throttle, then investigate ProCharger or Trask.

I'm serious, no joke...... I encourage you to suck up more than your share of 02 and belch more than your share of exhaust if it makes you sticker peck out. I know just the thought of it works for me.

 

Anything is possible, but I'm very confident that the responsiveness of the engine when hitting the throttle hard from 2000 rpms was measureably (seat-o-pants) better with the throttle table at 1:1 vs stock settings. My brother came away with the same sensation on his Ultra after making the throttle table 1:1. You'll note that I said in the early post that the engine needs to be tuned (or capable) of using 100% throttle at the rpm in the table. If you have a stock bike it could mean adjustment to the VE and spark tables. But once the bike is setup to use 100%, it will definitely provide a sensation of more engine responsiveness (less lag) than the stock throttle settings in a fbw throttle.

If what you just calculated accurately described how the throttle progressivity tables worked....there would be no reason to even have them since they would make no difference to the performance of the engine. Or did I miss something?

Given that your engine is still boggy after going back to the stock settings, it would appear that the issue has nothing to do with the throttle progressivity. This is clearly a tuning issue with either the VE tables or spark tables or both needing adjustment in the lower rpms.

I think once you get the engine tuned properly for smooth running at low speeds and sharp acceleration from low rpms, I think you'll find it will be worth trying the throttle tables at 1:1. I'll be interested to hear if the engine responsiveness at 1:1 is improved once your engine is tuned.

 

I had the tables at 1:1 and she was intolerably boggy. Putting the original SE 113 progressivity table back in has helped, but she is still boggy.

I think the reason for progressivity is something along the lines of what Jamie said - it is designed to increase the velocity thru the TB and help increase TQ down low.

I would still like to get the tables to 1:1.

I suspect increasing the progressivity to 1:1 is exacerbating a pre existing problem with the fuelling an/or ignition.

A while back i dialled in a little extra acceleration enrichment and the motor comes on much harder when you twist it on in the mid range, I suspect the VE tables are too high down low and the extra fuel is causing the bogginess. My VE tables show VE of close to 100% at 750 rpm. I doubt this is the case with 640 grind cams that have like 295 degrees off the seat...