Thank you all for the information and i will go with the 14/2-1 this is what the dealer told me to begin with but i just wanted to ask you guys knowing there is a lot of info on this site to be had by only asking. Thanks again

 

Iclick,
I do not have the knowledge or experience you do at this. I am not disputing what you say, but it conflicts with what my tuner tells me about how the O2 sensors work. According to him, he can set the a/f ratio at whatever he wants with a SERT. The O2 sensors do not work until you reach a certain ratio, I think he said it was somewhere around 14:1.

If the tuner puprosely set the a/f ratio at 13:1 throughout the entire range, the O2 sensors would never work. That is exactly the condition my bike was in from a novice tuner when I took it to him.

He says that's one of the most common problems he corrects.

Dennis

 

O2 sensors work in the range of 14.3 to 14.7 under certian conditions. I set up my afr and adjust it with a wide-ban 02 sensors from twin-tec to make sure my map is correct. the 13:1 is what SERT recomends you doing. But when you load in a canned map it is anything but that. For the tuning set-up I have it is not nessessary. It really is not that hard to go in and adjust. Remember, timing is another componet to this equation. Many tuners forget about timing and focus on AFR. Many maps that are on the SERT disc have way too high timing for our scoots. Although there is labels that say it is for off-road I can tell you they have the timing too advanced and run it lean in the crusing range. It takes time to tune a SERT setup. But when you do, very little is needed to fine tune or adjust.

The oe o2 acutally can go more in the spectru, yet the computer is not designed for that. I do belive HQ pro-tuner utilizes the oe o2 and adjust accordingly. SERT/SERS is the way to go for that, but you can use a PC I think.

 

The narrow band O2 sensor has a linear feedback between 14.2:1-15.2:1 under and above this range it has a logaritmic progression and it's feedback is not accountable/trustworthy.

To go on closed-loop mode with the SERT/SEST device you have to put 14.6:1 in the cells where you want to enable closed-loop and nowhere out of the 0-4500 rpm 0-40% tps ranges.
That will set a 14.6:1 AFR using closed-loop operation.

But into another menu there's a parameter called CLB Closed Loop Bias, this is the current Voltage the ECU has to take as good for 14.6:1 AFR. This parameter can go from near 300mV to 798mV, setting it to 798mV the 14.2:1 AFR ratio will look to the ECU like a 14.6:1.
That's the only trick to go under 14.6:1 AFR using narrow band sensors in closed loop, and nothing lower than 14.2:1 is possible.

The SERT/SEST with stock ECU can't use an effective high-performance closed-loop like the autotune modules with wide band O2 sensors, and to achieve good performance you have to disable and use dyno runs or portable gas analyzers to build a good map. Something like the WEGO III from Daytona or the Zeitronix or TechEdge small analyzer with wb o2 sensors.

I don't like SERT/SEST/TTS because of their prices being only stupid dongles that permit map upload into stock ECU. Overpriced tools with artificial limitations against the bike owners.
The only remarkable features are the good software (for TTS only), the ability to set idle speed and limitator, and that you don't need piggyback or other devices other than the stock ECU for remapping your EFI.

 

I Like those no's on that 107.

 

Wow! I have been interested for over a year on this subject. For a technologically stunted person like myself I find it difficult to understand the details you have described in this thread. If you could somehow simplify what you just said so I could more easily understand what you just said it would be helpful. You sound like you know your ****.

 

Bare in mind that:

(a) most of this thread is over two years old

(b) a LOT of the information contained within is false, and

(c) there are hundreds of pages of reading with respect to EFI tuning...no disrespect intended but to simplify the subject in a few lines or even paragraphs is simply not possible...IMHO.

 

What a timely post. I have just spent the last few days building some new maps for my '11 Limited. I'm running a PCV w/AutoTune.

My original map was 13.8/1 in cruise range and 13.0/1 at higher rpm and throttle positions. When hot and cruising at highway speeds up any slight incline I still had a little pinging that I wanted to try to eliminate with the AFR before resorting to backing-out some timing. The timing is at the factory level right now as I have already zeroed out the timing that was bumped-up 2 degrees in my original map.

I richened the AFR targets in my map to 13.4/1 and then took the bike out for a 20-mile test run. Then I checked the adjustments that the AutoTune was making to reach that target. The adjustments from this initial run were primarily in the range of 4%-6%. After hardwiring those changes into the map I did another test run and repeated the process for six or seven iterations. In each subsequent test run the AutoTune adjustments were becoming fewer and smaller. In the end, all adjustments being made by the AutoTune were < 2%. Trying to get any closer than that is like a dog chasing its tail. Up one run, down the next... You have to find a happy median and call it good enough.

I don't know yet if this is going to eliminate my pinging issue as the weather isn't warm enough any longer. I'll need a 85+ degree day to really know. Time will tell. If necessary, I'll try 13.2/1 next, and if that doesn't do it I'll have to back some timing out of it.

After finishing the first 13.4/1 map I changed the mufflers and went through the same process again for the new mufflers. Now I have three maps available. A 13.4/1 and 13.8/1 map for the stock mufflers and a 13.4/1 map for the aftermarket mufflers.

I put about 500 hard miles on my bike building these maps and had fun doing it... It's nice to have time for this kind of stuff - It's nice being retired!

I know a lot of you run leaner maps without any pinging issues, but for my bike, my riding style, and my riding conditions they just don't work for me. When my bike was brand new/stock with the factory 14.6/1 or 14.7/1 AFR I felt like it was going to self-destruct the pinging was so bad. I only rode the bike a week or two before adding the PCV and did that very conservatively. The PCV with the canned map I was running eliminated 90% of my pinging. Now I'm trying to get rid of the last 10%.

Based on my experience with my bike, I think the cruise AFR needs to be in the low to mid 13s to 1.

Good luck with yours.

EDIT: Let me take back my first sentence about this being a timely post... I just realized how old it is LOL. Everything else I wrote still applies!

 

Ok Pine Tree. That being said the whole reason I've been reading these forums so heavily in the past little while is to get some useful info from several different sources and take an average from that point. All I want is better than stock sound and a little better performance without the risk of engine meltdown. I've read some advice posted on some threads that are absolutely horrible. However, I will just keep reading and absorbing info and make my move with a little better understanding of what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. I sensed no disrespect but this is my first Harley and I want it to sound like one without causing irreparable damage.

 

FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH


A stoichiometric mixture is the working point that modern engine management systems employing fuel injection attempt to achieve in light load cruise situations. For gasoline fuel, the stoichiometric air–fuel mixture is approximately 14.7; i.e. the approximate mass of air is 14.7 mass of fuel. Any mixture less than 14.7 to 1 is considered to be a rich mixture; any more than 14.7 to 1 is a lean mixture – given perfect (ideal) "test" fuel (gasoline consisting of solely n-heptane and iso-octane). In reality, most fuels consist of a combination of heptane, octane, a handful of other alkanes, plus additives including detergents, and possibly oxygenators such as MTBE (methyl tert-butyl ether) or ethanol/methanol. These compounds all alter the stoichiometric ratio, with most of the additives pushing the ratio downward (oxygenators bring extra oxygen to the combustion event in liquid form that is released at time of combustions; for MTBE-laden fuel, a stoichiometric ratio can be as low as 14.1:1). Vehicles using an oxygen sensor(s) or other feedback-loop to control fuel to air ratios (usually by controlling fuel volume) will usually compensate automatically for this change in the fuel's stoichiometric rate by measuring the exhaust gas composition, while vehicles without such controls (such as most motorcycles until recently, and cars predating the mid-1980s) may have difficulties running certain boutique blends of fuels (esp. winter fuels used in some areas) and may need to be rejetted (or otherwise have the fueling ratios altered) to compensate for special boutique fuel mixes. Vehicles using oxygen sensors enable the air-fuel ratio to be monitored by means of an air–fuel ratio meter