Downside of New HDs running LEAN?
#81
11-17-2008, 01:19 PM
I would definitely make the move to an EFI controller, and the PC-V sounds like a winner to me. Stock HD's after '06 (and '06 Dynas) use narrow-band closed-loop systems and at cruise and idle when warm are set to stoich (14.7:1), which works fine in your car but manifests side-effects in an air-cooled MC. It will elevate head and oil temperatures, which can get very hot in summer months, especially without an oil cooler. I have an HD oil cooler and oil temps stay in line even though I have my cruise-range set rather lean (probably around 14.5) for better mileage. Typical oil temps are 180° when air temps are below 75°, up to about 210° while moving in summer, and as high as 230° in traffic. These are manageable and safe oil temps, IMO. When needed I can also activate my oil-cooler fans (fabricated) and the PCIII's map switch (optional with multifunction hub). My second map, switchable on the fly, produces a richer mixture designed to cool things down. The fans and switch are not necessary, but I like to tinker more than most, and they do work to some degree.
Warranty issues like this really depend on the dealer, but if a problem does not relate to an EFI modification there would be no legal way HD could deny your warranty. Any EFI mod that's installed and tuned properly will enhance the engine's longevity, and there's no way a PCIII could cause problems for the ECU since it is installed downstream of that unit. I also do all maintenance and repairs on my bike, but I've had a few warranty adjustments on my '07, none related to engine or EFI. The dealer never said anything about my PCIII that I installed and fine-tuned myself, and even discussed my tuning methods with him several times.
I'm considering a PC-V myself, as I like the ability to specify the AFR I want at any given point in the A/F chart. Jamie at Fuel Moto tells me that the software will look the same but instead of percent (AFR) and degree (timing) values used with the PCIII the PC-V will use AFR values, which to me are a much better solution. AFR values tell you much more, as with the PCIII's open-loop chart you can't ascertain the AFR starting point without putting the bike on a dyno or attaching some other type of AFR gauge. I tune by the seat of my pants using input such as heat, detonation, and surging as my gauge.
Jamie also tells me my map switch will also work with the PC-V, so I would create a gas-mileage map to use most of the time and also a second map to use when the going gets hot, like when stuck in traffic during hot weather. The downside is that the combo (PC-V and wideband module) will likely be $500 or so, and I'm not sure I'm that keen on spending that much on something that may not provide much improvement for me, certainly not in full-throttle performance. If I was buying from scratch I would definitely go this route.
One good reason beyond cooling to modify your bike from a stock setup is
performance. Just a PCIII, AC, and Rush slip-ons made a major difference on my bike. Playing with the cruise-range values on the PCIII map has also given me reasonably good mileage outside the city, 38-50mpg depending on speed and conditions. Lowest is city riding in cool weather with numerous cold starts, the highest at 55mph on backroads. By leaving Jamie's excellent tuning values intact above the cruise range I have not lost any performance in the process.
Warranty issues like this really depend on the dealer, but if a problem does not relate to an EFI modification there would be no legal way HD could deny your warranty. Any EFI mod that's installed and tuned properly will enhance the engine's longevity, and there's no way a PCIII could cause problems for the ECU since it is installed downstream of that unit. I also do all maintenance and repairs on my bike, but I've had a few warranty adjustments on my '07, none related to engine or EFI. The dealer never said anything about my PCIII that I installed and fine-tuned myself, and even discussed my tuning methods with him several times.
I'm considering a PC-V myself, as I like the ability to specify the AFR I want at any given point in the A/F chart. Jamie at Fuel Moto tells me that the software will look the same but instead of percent (AFR) and degree (timing) values used with the PCIII the PC-V will use AFR values, which to me are a much better solution. AFR values tell you much more, as with the PCIII's open-loop chart you can't ascertain the AFR starting point without putting the bike on a dyno or attaching some other type of AFR gauge. I tune by the seat of my pants using input such as heat, detonation, and surging as my gauge.
Jamie also tells me my map switch will also work with the PC-V, so I would create a gas-mileage map to use most of the time and also a second map to use when the going gets hot, like when stuck in traffic during hot weather. The downside is that the combo (PC-V and wideband module) will likely be $500 or so, and I'm not sure I'm that keen on spending that much on something that may not provide much improvement for me, certainly not in full-throttle performance. If I was buying from scratch I would definitely go this route.
One good reason beyond cooling to modify your bike from a stock setup is
performance. Just a PCIII, AC, and Rush slip-ons made a major difference on my bike. Playing with the cruise-range values on the PCIII map has also given me reasonably good mileage outside the city, 38-50mpg depending on speed and conditions. Lowest is city riding in cool weather with numerous cold starts, the highest at 55mph on backroads. By leaving Jamie's excellent tuning values intact above the cruise range I have not lost any performance in the process.
Jamie told us that the PC V is only able to work on the 09's, not earlier years.
#83
11-17-2008, 04:09 PM
Seasoned HDF Member
I'm considering a PC-V myself, as I like the ability to specify the AFR I want at any given point in the A/F chart. Jamie at Fuel Moto tells me that the software will look the same but instead of percent (AFR) and degree (timing) values used with the PCIII the PC-V will use AFR values, which to me are a much better solution. AFR values tell you much more, as with the PCIII's open-loop chart you can't ascertain the AFR starting point without putting the bike on a dyno or attaching some other type of AFR gauge. I tune by the seat of my pants using input such as heat, detonation, and surging as my gauge.
Originally Posted by dynojet
(Note: PCV’s will only be available for 2009 model year motorcycles)
?i thought the pcv sounded like a good thing too. wish they would make it for older bikes.....
edit: oops, see someone already beat me to the punch...
#84
11-17-2008, 04:17 PM
I talked with him last week and he told me it would work on earlier models except '08s. He said the '07 and earlier FLHs would use the same PC-V as newer Dynas (i.e. no TBW). We talked at length about replacing my PCIII with the PC-V and wideband module. I just emailed Jamie for verification and will post his answer later.
#85
11-17-2008, 04:25 PM
#86
11-17-2008, 04:25 PM
I talked with him last week and he told me it would work on earlier models except '08s. He said the '07 and earlier FLHs would use the same PC-V as newer Dynas (i.e. no TBW). We talked at length about replacing my PCIII with the PC-V and wideband module. I just emailed Jamie for verification and will post his answer later.
#87
11-17-2008, 04:43 PM
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I've made a decision to get my bike back to 100% stock, mufflers and all. 
My reasons are this:
1. I really don't want to jeopardize a paid for 7 year factory warranty. I just cant justify screwing with that.
2. The Monster Ovals while nice, are a tad louder then I expected them to be and I really don't consider them good for touring / long distance and on top of that, the baffles seem to be pretty big (something over 2" in diameter, maybe 2-1/4 or so, I didnt measure exact) and I am sure they are allowing the bike to breath better just because of less restriction. On a lean set bike, that means it's only going to run "leaner" still and that is not good for the motor, especially if no other modifications are going to be done to correct that.
3. I really was not disappointed at all with the stock 2009 factory HD mufflers and I was actually impressed with there sound when I first got the bike. Definitely quieter then the MOs and more stereo "friendly," so definitely livable too.
I will add an HD Oil Cooler and am switching to 100% syn-thetic in all three holes this coming weekend. The MOs will come off the bike at that time too. I'll enjoy the bike as is and add some chrome goodies with the money I get for the Monster Ovals, which will go up on ebay soon. I'll post a link for anyone interested in the mufflers. I love the bike so far, I really do and I don't want to have to worry about overheating, melting it down or warranty denial either. It was made to run lean from MOCO and I will do what I can to help keep the temperature reasonable with the afore mentioned changes (cooler and oil).
Thanks to all who shared your opinions in this thread and for putting up with my tirade
earlier about the warranty issue.
The MOs for anyone interested are made for 09 Touring HDs and are chrome with black tips, which I reversed to slash "up" to better match the slant of the bags...
(Just got done ordering up the 09 CVO Road Glide passenger compact backrest from Zanottis, so I'm already feeling even better about my decision)
My reasons are this:
1. I really don't want to jeopardize a paid for 7 year factory warranty. I just cant justify screwing with that.
2. The Monster Ovals while nice, are a tad louder then I expected them to be and I really don't consider them good for touring / long distance and on top of that, the baffles seem to be pretty big (something over 2" in diameter, maybe 2-1/4 or so, I didnt measure exact) and I am sure they are allowing the bike to breath better just because of less restriction. On a lean set bike, that means it's only going to run "leaner" still and that is not good for the motor, especially if no other modifications are going to be done to correct that.
3. I really was not disappointed at all with the stock 2009 factory HD mufflers and I was actually impressed with there sound when I first got the bike. Definitely quieter then the MOs and more stereo "friendly," so definitely livable too.
I will add an HD Oil Cooler and am switching to 100% syn-thetic in all three holes this coming weekend. The MOs will come off the bike at that time too. I'll enjoy the bike as is and add some chrome goodies with the money I get for the Monster Ovals, which will go up on ebay soon. I'll post a link for anyone interested in the mufflers. I love the bike so far, I really do and I don't want to have to worry about overheating, melting it down or warranty denial either. It was made to run lean from MOCO and I will do what I can to help keep the temperature reasonable with the afore mentioned changes (cooler and oil).
Thanks to all who shared your opinions in this thread and for putting up with my tirade
earlier about the warranty issue. The MOs for anyone interested are made for 09 Touring HDs and are chrome with black tips, which I reversed to slash "up" to better match the slant of the bags...
(Just got done ordering up the 09 CVO Road Glide passenger compact backrest from Zanottis, so I'm already feeling even better about my decision)
Last edited by RODEO; 11-17-2008 at 04:51 PM.
#88
11-17-2008, 04:48 PM
Nope. That's not in the cards at all. 
I just talked to Jamie on the phone. The PC-V for '09-only FLH bikes will be introduced soon, if not available now, and those for '09 Dynas/Softails coming about three weeks later. The '09 Dyna and '07 & earlier FLH are identical, so they should work. That's the poop from Jamie, and he did say they would be testing to verify backward compatibility. I guess until this happens there's a chance there will be a problem, but it looks favorable for us older-bike owners at this time.
The '08 models will apparently not be compatible with the PC-V, however, at least not at this time.
i thought the pcv sounded like a good thing too. wish they would make it for older bikes...
The '08 models will apparently not be compatible with the PC-V, however, at least not at this time.
#89
11-17-2008, 05:04 PM
Probably beacuse the pipe isn't there anymore. Stick your leg under the bike and it most certainly will. The '08 does the exact same thing when cylinder head temp reaches 380 deg f. Same temp as the '09. Can maually do it on '08 if ya want. The tune on the '09 is only different because of the different exhaust and finsl drive ratio change. They are tuned to the same constants. No difference.
#90
11-17-2008, 05:21 PM
One other aspect to this is that a PC-V alone is an open-loop system and a quick-install just like the PC-III, and if you ever did need warranty service you could simply unplug and remove the PC-V and O2-sensor eliminators, reconnect the O2 sensors that were never removed from the head pipes, and you're back to stock. That would take maybe 15 min. to remove and maybe 20 min. to re-install. OTOH, the PC-V with WB module would be more of an ordeal to retrofit to stock. The WB O2 sensors would not be compatible with the stock ECU and would have to be replaced with the stock narrow-band sensors. These things sometimes don't remove easily and threads can be damaged, so I wouldn't want to be doing it repeatedly.
2. The Monster Ovals while nice, are a tad louder then I expected them to be and I really don't consider them good for touring / long distance and on top of that, the baffles seem to be pretty big (something over 2" in diameter, maybe 2-1/4 or so, I didnt measure exact) and I am sure they are allowing the bike to breath better just because of less restriction. On a lean set bike, that means it's only going to run "leaner" still and that is not good for the motor, especially if no other modifications are going to be done to correct that.
3. I really was not disappointed at all with the stock 2009 factory HD mufflers and I was actually impressed with there sound when I first got the bike. Definitely quieter then the MOs and more stereo "friendly," so definitely livable too.
I will add an HD Oil Cooler and am switching to 100% syn-thetic in all three holes this coming weekend. The MOs will come off the bike at that time too. I'll enjoy the bike as is and add some chrome goodies with the money I get for the Monster Ovals, which will go up on ebay soon. I'll post a link for anyone interested in the mufflers. I love the bike so far, I really do and I don't want to have to worry about overheating, melting it down or warranty denial either. It was made to run lean from MOCO and I will do what I can to help keep the temperature reasonable with the afore mentioned changes (cooler and oil).