This is not a rant, but merely a discussion from a GM tech about what "Warranty owes you"

First, if you take your Harley into a dealer and say "I want those CVO injectors, or the injectors in this bulletin, etc etc.." You will most likely get little if any cooperation from your service department. Not that they do not want to help you, but mostly because their hands are tied. They cannot, and will not arbitrarily just throw a set of injectors in your bike because you want them to. They have tests that MUST be run, data that MUST be collected and reported to the MOCO. IF, and it's a BIG IF....your bike meets those certain criteria for injector replacement, then you stand a chance of getting them replaced. But warranty WILL not throw parts at your bike on a whim.


Second, for some reason service managers are insulted when someone comes in their dealership claiming to know more than them. The fact that you even know about this bulletin causes them to question your intentions. Some, in fact, try their best to prove their customers wrong. By doing ANYTHING but replacing the "said part in question" as the customer requested.


I said all that to say this....give your dealer a chance to repair your ill running bike on their own before pulling the "What about this service bulletin you idiot" card....if you must mention it....you might try "Hey my buddy has a bike like mine, and his was running bad and after many hours of parts changing the dealer near him put a set of injectors in it and fixed it". This scenario is two fold....it lets the dealer know that you know that the bike is in fact not right, and that it can be fixed. Also, it gives the dealer the incentive to "One up" the other "Mystery" dealer by replacing your injectors EARLY in the scenario, thus, making them look more highly skilled than the other dealer to you.


I work in a GM dealership, and have witnessed similar incidents.....not participated in......but witnessed....just some thoughts that might help yall out....


nogood o~`o

 

I agree with you nogood.

This is a large forum and sometimes we get info here before our home dealers have even gotten it. For instance I knew about this bulletin before my dealer. I also knew about the discontinuation of the Screamin' Eagle exhaust before my dealer got back from the dealer show. Hell, I knew about the 06 EPA problems before my dealer had figured it out. The problem is not with the dealers but with the MoCo for not keeping them informed. My dealer actually had me pull up the forum on his computer the other day to show him the bulletin.

 

Sorry the issue is about "Customer Satisfaction", "Consumer Confidence", and potentially "Safety".

Not about the tech saving face.

Or even about if your particular bike meets the "criteria".

The whole 06 EFI production line has been changed to the new part. That in itself is enough to justify seeking the change on the new 06 bike you purchased in the weeks prior to the production change.

This does not give license to the consumer to rant/rave/pound on the counter/etc. But it does give the consumer the right pursue replacement under the Service Bulletin.

No "BIG IF" about it.

 

Actually it is a fairly BIG IF! If your bike does not meet the criteria, proper paperwork completed, and all data recorded, THE FACTORY WILL NOT PAY THE DEALER FOR INJECTOR REPLACEMENT. It's just that simple. When the dealer principal ( owner ) signs on as a dealer, he is bound by the policy and procedures manual that the factory issues. If he does not thoroughly jump through all the necessary hoops, he does not get credit for the job. I am not saying that it is right, or even ok for that matter, but just because you have an '06 model, you ARE NOT entitled to an injector upgrade. I have an '06 and the thought has never crossed my mind. If your bike is running bad, it fails all the necessary tests.....then you are entitled to a fix, be it injectors or otherwise...


nogood o~`o

 

Any warranty issue I have had my dealer has fixed promptly. Security system, fork lock, stereo, motor mount and inner fairing recall so I can't complain. The bike was anemic in stock trim. I decided on the pipes and PCIII so it was up to me to get my bike to run with the package. My dealer did not tune my bike, I went to a performance shop. Running the stock injectors, and satisfied. I gotta say the SG has been a blast since I saw it in the crate. A little frustrating at times but it sure as hell puts a smile on my face. Harley's RULE!

 

I ECHO your thoughts!

 

I will admit that the day I got my bike home I experienced the sputter/cough and just chalked it up to the fact that it was only 40 degrees out. After taking my first spin around the block and almost ending up sideways in an intersection, I started looking up information on the topic and the very next day the bulletin came out.

I was nothing but a happy customer until I called and found out my bike was "done", only to have the idle speed upped! This was totally unacceptable to me![sm=badidea.gif]

Luckily I found another dealer in the area who agreed with me and was happy to solve my problems under warranty. Guess where I'll be spending my thousands of dollars in chrome and service in the future?

For the folks who's bikes haven't shown ANY symptoms, I think the least they should get is an explaination of why the 8 degree injectors are OK even though all the new ones are getting the 25 degree CVO's? It seems that the stock injectors can support some pretty wild setups, so why don't they just use them on the new stock bikes with a re-map? If buying a SERT can fix the problem, couldn't they just come up w/ a richer map on the low-end to take care of it for nearly no cost?

Bottom line is we all spent a lot of money on our bikes to own the very best and we want to make sure we have the very best. We don't want something that's going to burn up in a couple years from getting too hot because of a simple fix.

 

From what I can see at this moment this post is getting to look pretty sticky...

I don't believe that any of us H-D owners have a license to steal or are in a position to dictate to the MOCO or the dealership which we purchased our fine machines from.

Sure the MOCO wants to take care of an issue, "ANY" issue that ensues from what ever the cause. EPA, manufacturing defects, design etc.... They have not only an image, but competition to contend with, and if they put the phrase "customer statisfaction" into a service bulletin for techicnal directions for the dealerships its just that a technical directive! Not a recall, not a blanket fix.

I have had my 2006 RK into the shop just once, for the 1000 mile service. I did have a problem with engine overheating and lobbing on one cylinder and dying... I was told that the hi-temp low speed idle was to low. The dealer adjusted it.

This was not even the dealer that sold me the bike and they fixed my issue.

I certianly think that if we show some restraint and approach the dealer in a manner that they can satisify the conditions on MOCO's technical guidance, then maybe those bikes with issues will be resolved. But, I for one would like the CVO injectors, however I will not go in to the dealer and demand they install them unless the situation with my RK is such that it warrents them to change from what is presently installed.

I for one perfer to show some loyialty to the product and expect that the issues, if and when ever they arrise can and will be corrected. I do know if the issue that I have had on my RK had persisted, I certianly would have been on the dealership to interact with the MOCO for a timely resolve to insure that my safety was not comprimised. And that I as a customer was satisfied.

This is a good deal in that, to me its a vechicle for the dealership to fix a problem that has been identified. Not to arbratairly install parts without justification to make us happy. Or to recommend you purchase a Sert or PCIII or some equally outragiously expensive item to add additional unknowns into what ever the orgin of the problem was and to what is required to fix it.

Patients is a virtue and those who raise their voice first loose!

Just my $0.o2.

Thank you,
Gary

 

Well said Gary!


nogood o~`o

 

I think this entire forum is a great resource and just about everybody on here is looking to help out their fellow riders and look for solutions to problems they might be experiencing. I still think the main reason there's been so much activity on this subject is the uncertainty about what exactly is wrong w/ the original injectors.

I also failed to mention that after the idle speed was increased, my problem remained and actually seems worse??? Just yesterday I fired it up for my brother-in-law who was looking at it for the first time, and when I went to roll the throttle a little bit, it died. Never died before, just stumbled.

Now if I was experiencing no symptoms at all, the part that would bother me most is that ALL new bikes will have the CVO injectors. Why is that? It implies that the original injectors were inferior to the point they warrant a manufacturing change. Maybe this isn't true, but it certainly brings up that question. I believe my injectors are fine and they just need to be told to provide more fuel off idle. Actually, the service mgr. backs that theory by telling me to buy the SERT and letting them dyno it! On a STOCK bike! I wanted to break mine in totally stock on purpose so that any bugs could be worked out w/ no excuses. Installing a SERT that clearly states it voids the warranty doesn't make me feel great either. Sure, they're say they'll still warranty the engine, but if push came to shove, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on if I installed the SERT and THEN had problems.

My theory is that the CVO injectors provide for a better burn, still meeting EPA standards while resolving the stumbling issues. That's just a guess though. I want to make sure I've got a bike that works like it's supposed to in stock form before I start making any kind of changes to it.

If anybody knows the finer points about the differences between the stock and CVO injectors and how they relate to the stumbling issues, we'd all love to hear about it! I think it would also ease a lot of worried minds who don't have any problems now, but fear them down the road.