Panic stop. OH SHIT
#71
06-03-2008, 07:23 AM
Tourer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Gainesville, Virginia
Posts: 304
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#72
06-03-2008, 07:48 AM
Cruiser
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location:
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#73
06-03-2008, 08:33 AM
Outstanding HDF Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,847
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Panic stop. OH ****
ORIGINAL: Paniolo
I would caveat that statement by adding "under less than ideal conditions". That means road surface, debris and such. When I went through motor school, the training officers did a braking comparison demo. On one bike was an instructor on an old Kawasaki Police Bike. The other bike was a ABS equipped BMW RT fromMY AGENCY. It was the duty bike one of our guys rode out there. I don't know the speed they ran the test at, but it was the same for both bikes. Time and time again, using good Threshold Combination Braking the KZ stopped shorter and quicker than the BMW with the ABS deployed. And the distance was measurable. The purpose of this demonstration was to instill in us the confidence that even WITHOUT the ABS, a bike is fully capable of good stops. It hammered home the importance of keeping up good braking skills too. Now, under less than ideal conditions, ABS wins every time.
What they told us is that just because your duty bike does NOT have ABS, does not mean it cannot stop as quick or as short as an ABS bike, under ideal conditions. The fact that the KZ did was proof enough for me. So, practice braking regularly. Learn to use the system on the bike and get acquainted with it. Yes ABS is good to have under less than ideal conditions.The uniforms on the street all LOVE having ABS on their duty bikes, be it BMW or HD. However they all know that ABS is NOT a substitute for good braking skills.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but PRACTICE.
ORIGINAL: hogdoc
No matter how good you THINK you are or how much riding experience you have YOU WILL NOT OUT STOP ABS!
And if you think that with ABS you cant lock up the rear brake and put your bike into a slide in a panic situation, your right you cant, but you dont need to, it will stop SO MUCH SOONER than a bike sliding on its side, and the added bonus is you dont have to repair your bike, just your underwear!
ORIGINAL: ratcat
OK, to be sporting, I'll jump in here so ya'all can have someone ta kick around.
I learned early on, say 1973-back when drum brakes where the best thing going at the local track, thatmastering thefront brake was the ticket to the podium.
So I would practice locking-up the front wheel on my Honda dirtbike to see how far of a skid mark I could leave on the pavement, anyway...long story-short,
I have a garage full of trophys now,and am too old to ride a dirtbike. But I can still leave a front wheel skid mark on the road. ABS? great for your bike, just not mine.
OK, to be sporting, I'll jump in here so ya'all can have someone ta kick around.
I learned early on, say 1973-back when drum brakes where the best thing going at the local track, thatmastering thefront brake was the ticket to the podium.
So I would practice locking-up the front wheel on my Honda dirtbike to see how far of a skid mark I could leave on the pavement, anyway...long story-short,
I have a garage full of trophys now,and am too old to ride a dirtbike. But I can still leave a front wheel skid mark on the road. ABS? great for your bike, just not mine.
And if you think that with ABS you cant lock up the rear brake and put your bike into a slide in a panic situation, your right you cant, but you dont need to, it will stop SO MUCH SOONER than a bike sliding on its side, and the added bonus is you dont have to repair your bike, just your underwear!
What they told us is that just because your duty bike does NOT have ABS, does not mean it cannot stop as quick or as short as an ABS bike, under ideal conditions. The fact that the KZ did was proof enough for me. So, practice braking regularly. Learn to use the system on the bike and get acquainted with it. Yes ABS is good to have under less than ideal conditions.The uniforms on the street all LOVE having ABS on their duty bikes, be it BMW or HD. However they all know that ABS is NOT a substitute for good braking skills.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but PRACTICE.
#74
06-03-2008, 08:59 AM
Cruiser
RE: Panic stop. OH ****
This thread is getting a little long, but I will add my 2 cents in...
I have an 08 EG with ABS and of course TBW.
First my impressions with TBW. Harley did an excellent job of incorporating TBW. It can not tell any difference between it and cable control. One nice benefit is the fact that when I use cruise the set speed is the speed that cruise holds. There is no drop in speed or time delay that I can see.
Now for ABS, you guys need to first change the word "PANIC" to "EMERGENCY" stop. Panic implies that your brain is no longer in gear. That I know isnt the case.
I have had one emergency stop from 60 mphon the 08with my wife on the back. It was on a dry clean road with plenty of friction. These Harley brakes are excellent. They are equal to or better than the 05 Goldwing that I had. Kudos to Harley. I had excellent control. ABS never activated and this was a passenger/driver helmet slamming stop. Yes, my wife was watching the road, but she could not prevent her helmet from hitting mine.
On other bikes I had two front wheel skids during hard braking. One skid wasdue tooil and the other due to rain. In both cases, releasing front brake pressure gave me control again and I did not go down or crash. The rain skid is what convinced me that ABS would be on my next bike.
In summary, on good dry clean roads ABS is probably wasted money. On wet dirty roads ABS is worth its weight in gold. I think that in a few years there will be more touring bikes with ABS than bikes without.
OD
I have an 08 EG with ABS and of course TBW.
First my impressions with TBW. Harley did an excellent job of incorporating TBW. It can not tell any difference between it and cable control. One nice benefit is the fact that when I use cruise the set speed is the speed that cruise holds. There is no drop in speed or time delay that I can see.
Now for ABS, you guys need to first change the word "PANIC" to "EMERGENCY" stop. Panic implies that your brain is no longer in gear. That I know isnt the case.
I have had one emergency stop from 60 mphon the 08with my wife on the back. It was on a dry clean road with plenty of friction. These Harley brakes are excellent. They are equal to or better than the 05 Goldwing that I had. Kudos to Harley. I had excellent control. ABS never activated and this was a passenger/driver helmet slamming stop. Yes, my wife was watching the road, but she could not prevent her helmet from hitting mine.
On other bikes I had two front wheel skids during hard braking. One skid wasdue tooil and the other due to rain. In both cases, releasing front brake pressure gave me control again and I did not go down or crash. The rain skid is what convinced me that ABS would be on my next bike.
In summary, on good dry clean roads ABS is probably wasted money. On wet dirty roads ABS is worth its weight in gold. I think that in a few years there will be more touring bikes with ABS than bikes without.
OD
#75
06-03-2008, 09:18 AM
RE: Panic stop. OH ****
Trock
I wonder if the fact that your comparing two different bikes has anything to do with the results? Also I think the BMW has linked brakes and the HD are not. I would like the see the test with say two street glides one with ABS one without. But I just don't think your comparison in this case works.
The BMWs we haddid NOT have linked brakes. I rode one of them for years on duty, it was a good system and I liked it. Some of the BMWs had linked brakes, and some do not. I can see your point about the bikes being different, but after personally watching the demonstration I don't think that was too much of an issue. It was the demonstration of good braking skills vs ABS under ideal conditions. I would venture to say that if the instructors were using HD Police Glides, one with ABS, and without, then under ideal conditions the bike without ABS would stop shorter than the bike with ABS deployed. This was not some random thing they did for us, these guys had done a whole study and had been doing this type of thing for a while. Their whole thing was that while ABS is good under less than ideal conditions, it is not a substitute for good braking skills. Now the same instructors on the same bikes on gravel, the ABS equipped BMW won every time.
I hope folks don't think I am bashing ABS, I'm not. ABS is a good thing, we've discovered that on our cars, trucks and airplanes. ABS is the way to go no doubt. If ABS was available when I bought my Ultra back in '01, I would have gotten it (NOT linked brakes of course). All I'm saying is that if a rider practices regularly and learns to maximize their braking skills, they can stop just a quick, ir not quicker than a bike with ABS deployed under ideal conditions. Had I not seen it with my own eyes over and over again I too would not believe it.
I wonder if the fact that your comparing two different bikes has anything to do with the results? Also I think the BMW has linked brakes and the HD are not. I would like the see the test with say two street glides one with ABS one without. But I just don't think your comparison in this case works.
The BMWs we haddid NOT have linked brakes. I rode one of them for years on duty, it was a good system and I liked it. Some of the BMWs had linked brakes, and some do not. I can see your point about the bikes being different, but after personally watching the demonstration I don't think that was too much of an issue. It was the demonstration of good braking skills vs ABS under ideal conditions. I would venture to say that if the instructors were using HD Police Glides, one with ABS, and without, then under ideal conditions the bike without ABS would stop shorter than the bike with ABS deployed. This was not some random thing they did for us, these guys had done a whole study and had been doing this type of thing for a while. Their whole thing was that while ABS is good under less than ideal conditions, it is not a substitute for good braking skills. Now the same instructors on the same bikes on gravel, the ABS equipped BMW won every time.
I hope folks don't think I am bashing ABS, I'm not. ABS is a good thing, we've discovered that on our cars, trucks and airplanes. ABS is the way to go no doubt. If ABS was available when I bought my Ultra back in '01, I would have gotten it (NOT linked brakes of course). All I'm saying is that if a rider practices regularly and learns to maximize their braking skills, they can stop just a quick, ir not quicker than a bike with ABS deployed under ideal conditions. Had I not seen it with my own eyes over and over again I too would not believe it.
#76
06-03-2008, 10:12 AM
5th Gear
Join Date: May 2008
Location:
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Panic stop. OH ****
This may not be much help, But I FEEL ABS SAVED ME IN A EMEGENCY STOP ! THESE BRAKES WORK ! When I was looking for my new bike the salesman said the Black 1 has ABS and the White gold & Pearl black 1 dosent. I thought to myself, I really like the 2 tone ,and do i really need the abs ? Both same price . The salesman talked me into the Black with ABS . And after my emegency stop , I went back and thanked him . I feel that ABS saved me from T-BONEING a Ford Expedition ! I Had no option toslide andswearve around . Heavy head on traffic and deep ditch on the sides ! That left me with 1 option STOP NOW !!!! AND IT DID !! Thanks Harley Davidson, Brembo Brakes, and my SALEMAN for the ABS BRAKES ! Oh and the TBW love it and wouldnt want it anyother way !!
#77
06-03-2008, 01:21 PM
#78
06-03-2008, 01:51 PM
RE: Panic stop. OH ****
I'm a fan of ABS. Don't have it on my Electraglide but I've had a BMW with it in the past and I think it's a great feature. If I was buying a new bike and had the option it's an easy choice to me. All the experience in the world can only be helped by having it IMHO. ABS will not make an experienced rider any less safe and will save countless less experienced riders from injuries and/or fatalities.
#80
06-03-2008, 04:05 PM
Road Captain
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Newport TN
Posts: 621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Panic stop. OH ****
heres the problem with the tests quoted so far, you have "VERY EXPERIENCED riders emergency brakeing where they KNOW to do a well practiced emergency brake. The KNOW part isnt even given a knod here and IT IS VERY IMPORTANT!!
They are settin up their emergency stop from the time they turn to start that run!! When they start the run they have their weight centered their hands in control postition their body position ready to RUMBLE!! That to me is certianly VERY KEY to their doing such great emergency stops. Also their mind is 100% emergency brake focused, not lookin behind or off to the side or tryin to swing alittle sideways to miss that front fender.
Where as in reality, we ride lots of times in not so centered body positons and hands not in perfect postiton and maybe feet set too far whatever . so it seems like in the real world as on the street the experienced rider would be hard pressed to beat the abs system cause it's going to work every time.
And from what I have been told it is a very little maintence system. you can change tires and change brake pads and there is nothin with the abs to fool with. what's NOT to like except payin for it?
They are settin up their emergency stop from the time they turn to start that run!! When they start the run they have their weight centered their hands in control postition their body position ready to RUMBLE!! That to me is certianly VERY KEY to their doing such great emergency stops. Also their mind is 100% emergency brake focused, not lookin behind or off to the side or tryin to swing alittle sideways to miss that front fender.
Where as in reality, we ride lots of times in not so centered body positons and hands not in perfect postiton and maybe feet set too far whatever . so it seems like in the real world as on the street the experienced rider would be hard pressed to beat the abs system cause it's going to work every time.
And from what I have been told it is a very little maintence system. you can change tires and change brake pads and there is nothin with the abs to fool with. what's NOT to like except payin for it?