well heres an ethics question .........
#61
02-15-2008 | 01:16 AM
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,046
Likes: 1
From: Canada
RE: well heres an ethics question .........
ORIGINAL: TexasRedneck
Reminds me of years ago - had a new/used Suburban had literally purchased the night before. Got up the next morning to go get new tires put on. Truck was GONE. Cops recovered it before the first unit arrived at my house. Towed to local tire shop (all 4 wheels and BIG box of tools gone). Adjuster came out, I explained to him that the tires were essentially carcasses, that they were going to be replaced that day anyway. He writes out the loss check on the spot and gives me a copy of the loss report (in case anything is priced wrong or more work is needed than allowed for). I see "4 100% tires, $xxx.xx". "WAIT," I tell him, "You misunderstood - those tires were gone!". He looked me right in the eye and said that after 20+ years of theft adjustments, I was the FIRST guy who ever said the tires were of no practical value - and he figured that if they could lie about it and get it, he'd dang well take care of someone trying to be honest. Turned out that it paid off in the long run....by the time I'd totaled out the tool loss, their office was beginning to doubt me. He came back out, we talked - and he wrote out a check for the declared loss.
Now, stuff like that doesn't happen often - but sometimes honesty and integrity pays off in ways you wouldn't expect. No matter what else, at the end of the day the ONE guy I've gotta impress doesn't do so easily....after all, HE has holes in his extremities.
Reminds me of years ago - had a new/used Suburban had literally purchased the night before. Got up the next morning to go get new tires put on. Truck was GONE. Cops recovered it before the first unit arrived at my house. Towed to local tire shop (all 4 wheels and BIG box of tools gone). Adjuster came out, I explained to him that the tires were essentially carcasses, that they were going to be replaced that day anyway. He writes out the loss check on the spot and gives me a copy of the loss report (in case anything is priced wrong or more work is needed than allowed for). I see "4 100% tires, $xxx.xx". "WAIT," I tell him, "You misunderstood - those tires were gone!". He looked me right in the eye and said that after 20+ years of theft adjustments, I was the FIRST guy who ever said the tires were of no practical value - and he figured that if they could lie about it and get it, he'd dang well take care of someone trying to be honest. Turned out that it paid off in the long run....by the time I'd totaled out the tool loss, their office was beginning to doubt me. He came back out, we talked - and he wrote out a check for the declared loss.
Now, stuff like that doesn't happen often - but sometimes honesty and integrity pays off in ways you wouldn't expect. No matter what else, at the end of the day the ONE guy I've gotta impress doesn't do so easily....after all, HE has holes in his extremities.
#62
02-15-2008 | 01:27 AM
Road Master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 959
Likes: 5
From: Oswego, IL
RE: well heres an ethics question .........
There is 2 sides to this for me.........
1 - Have the dealer do the work and if there is more wrong it would be easier for the repairing dealer to get the extra money to get the repairs done. From my experiences, there is more dammage than estimated (insurance company tactic). You would be hard pressed to get it out of the insurance company (you would have to prove the dammage was accident related). I also know that if you use an approved repair place most major insurance companys include a lifetime warranty on those repairs........
2 - Do the work yourself and do what you will with the rest. You know your own limitations and if you feel comfortable with the dammage assesment and the insurance payout then D.I.Y!!! I would talk to the dealer that ordered the parts already and purchase the parts.
my 2 pennies............
1 - Have the dealer do the work and if there is more wrong it would be easier for the repairing dealer to get the extra money to get the repairs done. From my experiences, there is more dammage than estimated (insurance company tactic). You would be hard pressed to get it out of the insurance company (you would have to prove the dammage was accident related). I also know that if you use an approved repair place most major insurance companys include a lifetime warranty on those repairs........
2 - Do the work yourself and do what you will with the rest. You know your own limitations and if you feel comfortable with the dammage assesment and the insurance payout then D.I.Y!!! I would talk to the dealer that ordered the parts already and purchase the parts.
my 2 pennies............
#63
02-15-2008 | 01:29 AM
Road Master
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 847
Likes: 0
From:
RE: well heres an ethics question .........
Ethically speaking, if they ordered parts, find out which one's had to be ordered, and buy them, but find out what they will cost before you tell them you're doing your own work.
You could buy the ordered parts, or if you feel they really are too high, pay a restock fee, but for the guys on here to say you 'owe' the dealer the job is pure Bullsh!+. You owe nobody nothing until they've put the work into it. There is the matter of reimbursing them for the order or buying outright though.
I know where I go, there's usually a two week waiting period. Does it sound fair that you should have to wait two weeks for repairs to start cause you got an estimate from these guys. Nope. They have plenty of time to cover their schedule for any job you may have told them that you may have they do. Usually a contract on a job can be cancelled, if there was a contract for work, if it's done within a reasonable amount of time.
I will put it this way. You go to a HD dealers shop for an estimate, causethey're supposed to be the authority on what it takes and time wise, yet you know these clowns arepoor craftsmen from other peoples work they've done. Would you feel obligated to do thework there, or are you glad that you got an estimate from someone the insurance company feels is competent to quote a cost estimate? Remember, the insurance company is who wants the quote, and they want it from a HD dealer cause they know the real costof parts and time it should take.
That doesn't mean that they would accept an estimate from a competent tech that can do the work that doesn't have a shop, so his estimate wouldn't count, so does that mean a Qualified, trained and extremely competent tech that doesn't work for an HDdealershipshouldn'tbe allowed to do thework, cause the dealer doesn't consider hima shop, even if he is more qualified and better trained,more recently trainedin newer techniques and bikes,than the tech that quoted the estimate? or has other tools or such. Doesn't matter if the tech is better anyway, just that he can do the job. The critical matter is that the cost quoted wasn't inflated (yeah right) and was quoted by someone that is qualified to quote an accurate cost, notby some dishonest fly-by-night tech to burn the insurance company, that is the only matter as far as ethics goes that I can see. The got a quote from harley, so no burn on your part. I don't see any question of ethics, as long as the dealer isn't left holding the bag on the parts they ordered special for you. I would try to assure they don't inflate the cost of the parts if you are going somewhere else to do the work, or do it yourself.
I don't feel you have to buy all the parts from the dealer neither, just the one's that had to be ordered special for your job.
In AZ I have the right to have whoever I want do the work, as long as they aren't ripping off the insurance company. If the insurance company can get a part less expensively, like the bumper on my car, they can tell me that the estimate for the bumper is too high and get the part themselves or only pay that much for it, if it is equal to the part that came off the car.
The insurance company got an honest quote, so you're not burning anyone ethically by doing your own work. Now as far as what the dealer already did, they need to be covered on that to stay ethical, but what they didn't do, well that's your decision.
If I build your house, and it gets torn up in a storm, and I give an estimate to fix it, that doesn't mean you have to have me fix it. You should have got at least 2 estimates on your vehicle. Does that mean you have to let both estimators fix you bike?
You could buy the ordered parts, or if you feel they really are too high, pay a restock fee, but for the guys on here to say you 'owe' the dealer the job is pure Bullsh!+. You owe nobody nothing until they've put the work into it. There is the matter of reimbursing them for the order or buying outright though.
I know where I go, there's usually a two week waiting period. Does it sound fair that you should have to wait two weeks for repairs to start cause you got an estimate from these guys. Nope. They have plenty of time to cover their schedule for any job you may have told them that you may have they do. Usually a contract on a job can be cancelled, if there was a contract for work, if it's done within a reasonable amount of time.
I will put it this way. You go to a HD dealers shop for an estimate, causethey're supposed to be the authority on what it takes and time wise, yet you know these clowns arepoor craftsmen from other peoples work they've done. Would you feel obligated to do thework there, or are you glad that you got an estimate from someone the insurance company feels is competent to quote a cost estimate? Remember, the insurance company is who wants the quote, and they want it from a HD dealer cause they know the real costof parts and time it should take.
That doesn't mean that they would accept an estimate from a competent tech that can do the work that doesn't have a shop, so his estimate wouldn't count, so does that mean a Qualified, trained and extremely competent tech that doesn't work for an HDdealershipshouldn'tbe allowed to do thework, cause the dealer doesn't consider hima shop, even if he is more qualified and better trained,more recently trainedin newer techniques and bikes,than the tech that quoted the estimate? or has other tools or such. Doesn't matter if the tech is better anyway, just that he can do the job. The critical matter is that the cost quoted wasn't inflated (yeah right) and was quoted by someone that is qualified to quote an accurate cost, notby some dishonest fly-by-night tech to burn the insurance company, that is the only matter as far as ethics goes that I can see. The got a quote from harley, so no burn on your part. I don't see any question of ethics, as long as the dealer isn't left holding the bag on the parts they ordered special for you. I would try to assure they don't inflate the cost of the parts if you are going somewhere else to do the work, or do it yourself.
I don't feel you have to buy all the parts from the dealer neither, just the one's that had to be ordered special for your job.
In AZ I have the right to have whoever I want do the work, as long as they aren't ripping off the insurance company. If the insurance company can get a part less expensively, like the bumper on my car, they can tell me that the estimate for the bumper is too high and get the part themselves or only pay that much for it, if it is equal to the part that came off the car.
The insurance company got an honest quote, so you're not burning anyone ethically by doing your own work. Now as far as what the dealer already did, they need to be covered on that to stay ethical, but what they didn't do, well that's your decision.
If I build your house, and it gets torn up in a storm, and I give an estimate to fix it, that doesn't mean you have to have me fix it. You should have got at least 2 estimates on your vehicle. Does that mean you have to let both estimators fix you bike?
#64
02-15-2008 | 05:40 AM
Road Master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 968
Likes: 11
From: Oconomowoc, Wisconsin
RE: well heres an ethics question .........
[quote]ORIGINAL: azhole
Ethically speaking, if they ordered parts, find out which one's had to be ordered, and buy them, but find out what they will cost before you tell them you're doing your own work.
You could buy the ordered parts, or if you feel they really are too high, pay a restock fee, but for the guys on here to say you 'owe' the dealer the job is pure Bullsh!+. You owe nobody nothing until they've put the work into it. There is the matter of reimbursing them for the order or buying outright though.
I know where I go, there's usually a two week waiting period. Does it sound fair that you should have to wait two weeks for repairs to start cause you got an estimate from these guys. Nope. They have plenty of time to cover their schedule for any job you may have told them that you may have they do. Usually a contract on a job can be cancelled, if there was a contract for work, if it's done within a reasonable amount of time.
I will put it this way. You go to a HD dealers shop for an estimate, causethey're supposed to be the authority on what it takes and time wise, yet you know these clowns arepoor craftsmen from other peoples work they've done. Would you feel obligated to do thework there, or are you glad that you got an estimate from someone the insurance company feels is competent to quote a cost estimate? Remember, the insurance company is who wants the quote, and they want it from a HD dealer cause they know the real costof parts and time it should take.
That doesn't mean that they would accept an estimate from a competent tech that can do the work that doesn't have a shop, so his estimate wouldn't count, so does that mean a Qualified, trained and extremely competent tech that doesn't work for an HDdealershipshouldn'tbe allowed to do thework, cause the dealer doesn't consider hima shop, even if he is more qualified and better trained,more recently trainedin newer techniques and bikes,than the tech that quoted the estimate? or has other tools or such. Doesn't matter if the tech is better anyway, just that he can do the job. The critical matter is that the cost quoted wasn't inflated (yeah right) and was quoted by someone that is qualified to quote an accurate cost, notby some dishonest fly-by-night tech to burn the insurance company, that is the only matter as far as ethics goes that I can see. The got a quote from harley, so no burn on your part. I don't see any question of ethics, as long as the dealer isn't left holding the bag on the parts they ordered special for you. I would try to assure they don't inflate the cost of the parts if you are going somewhere else to do the work, or do it yourself.
I don't feel you have to buy all the parts from the dealer neither, just the one's that had to be ordered special for your job.
In AZ I have the right to have whoever I want do the work, as long as they aren't ripping off the insurance company. If the insurance company can get a part less expensively, like the bumper on my car, they can tell me that the estimate for the bumper is too high and get the part themselves or only pay that much for it, if it is equal to the part that came off the car.
The insurance company got an honest quote, so you're not burning anyone ethically by doing your own work. Now as far as what the dealer already did, they need to be covered on that to stay ethical, but what they didn't do, well that's your decision.
If I build your house, and it gets torn up in a storm, and I give an estimate to fix it, that doesn't mean you have to have me fix it. You should have got at least 2 estimates on your vehicle. Does that mean you have to let both estimators
Ethically speaking, if they ordered parts, find out which one's had to be ordered, and buy them, but find out what they will cost before you tell them you're doing your own work.
You could buy the ordered parts, or if you feel they really are too high, pay a restock fee, but for the guys on here to say you 'owe' the dealer the job is pure Bullsh!+. You owe nobody nothing until they've put the work into it. There is the matter of reimbursing them for the order or buying outright though.
I know where I go, there's usually a two week waiting period. Does it sound fair that you should have to wait two weeks for repairs to start cause you got an estimate from these guys. Nope. They have plenty of time to cover their schedule for any job you may have told them that you may have they do. Usually a contract on a job can be cancelled, if there was a contract for work, if it's done within a reasonable amount of time.
I will put it this way. You go to a HD dealers shop for an estimate, causethey're supposed to be the authority on what it takes and time wise, yet you know these clowns arepoor craftsmen from other peoples work they've done. Would you feel obligated to do thework there, or are you glad that you got an estimate from someone the insurance company feels is competent to quote a cost estimate? Remember, the insurance company is who wants the quote, and they want it from a HD dealer cause they know the real costof parts and time it should take.
That doesn't mean that they would accept an estimate from a competent tech that can do the work that doesn't have a shop, so his estimate wouldn't count, so does that mean a Qualified, trained and extremely competent tech that doesn't work for an HDdealershipshouldn'tbe allowed to do thework, cause the dealer doesn't consider hima shop, even if he is more qualified and better trained,more recently trainedin newer techniques and bikes,than the tech that quoted the estimate? or has other tools or such. Doesn't matter if the tech is better anyway, just that he can do the job. The critical matter is that the cost quoted wasn't inflated (yeah right) and was quoted by someone that is qualified to quote an accurate cost, notby some dishonest fly-by-night tech to burn the insurance company, that is the only matter as far as ethics goes that I can see. The got a quote from harley, so no burn on your part. I don't see any question of ethics, as long as the dealer isn't left holding the bag on the parts they ordered special for you. I would try to assure they don't inflate the cost of the parts if you are going somewhere else to do the work, or do it yourself.
I don't feel you have to buy all the parts from the dealer neither, just the one's that had to be ordered special for your job.
In AZ I have the right to have whoever I want do the work, as long as they aren't ripping off the insurance company. If the insurance company can get a part less expensively, like the bumper on my car, they can tell me that the estimate for the bumper is too high and get the part themselves or only pay that much for it, if it is equal to the part that came off the car.
The insurance company got an honest quote, so you're not burning anyone ethically by doing your own work. Now as far as what the dealer already did, they need to be covered on that to stay ethical, but what they didn't do, well that's your decision.
If I build your house, and it gets torn up in a storm, and I give an estimate to fix it, that doesn't mean you have to have me fix it. You should have got at least 2 estimates on your vehicle. Does that mean you have to let both estimators
#65
02-15-2008 | 08:52 AM
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,449
Likes: 44
From: Roswell, GA
RE: well heres an ethics question .........
Apparently, according to the original post, Allstate mistakenly sent the check to you instead of the dealer:
"so yesterday i open the mail and allstate paid me directly instead of payin the dealer like they said."
Before I cashed a check that was mistakenly issued to me, I'd contact Allstate to confirm that I could negotiate the check, or be prepared to return it.
If the bike is financed, the lienholderhas legal rights that are involved, primiarily that the bike be professionally repaired so as not to diminish thevalue of the bike and the lienholder's security interest in it.Protecting the lineholder's interest is probably why Allstate was going to issue the check to the dealer in the first place--to assure the bike was repaired properly. Regardless, I'd contact Allstate before negotiating a check mistakenly issued to me.
"so yesterday i open the mail and allstate paid me directly instead of payin the dealer like they said."
Before I cashed a check that was mistakenly issued to me, I'd contact Allstate to confirm that I could negotiate the check, or be prepared to return it.
If the bike is financed, the lienholderhas legal rights that are involved, primiarily that the bike be professionally repaired so as not to diminish thevalue of the bike and the lienholder's security interest in it.Protecting the lineholder's interest is probably why Allstate was going to issue the check to the dealer in the first place--to assure the bike was repaired properly. Regardless, I'd contact Allstate before negotiating a check mistakenly issued to me.
#66
02-15-2008 | 09:18 AM
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,306
Likes: 5
From: Bellville, Tx
RE: well heres an ethics question .........
Wrong, they sent the check to him, it's up to him what to do with it. Had a recent accident and the ins. check was issued directly to me. I have no liens on the bike, so can do what I please with the wreck and the check. If there is a lien, then the situation changes and the lien holder has a say.
#67
02-15-2008 | 09:30 AM
Former Sponsor
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,241
Likes: 7
From: Rochester, NY
#68
02-15-2008 | 09:47 AM
Elite HDF Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,929
Likes: 8
RE: well heres an ethics question .........
As far as 'ethics' go ... I don't think there should be a problem with you changing your mind about doing anything. This is a business. This happens all the time .. in business. Often a retail store will charge a restocking fee for items ordered that they don't typically keep in stock. A small fee to cover the time it takes for their staff to return the item to the wholesaler. They get their credit for it, and get paid for their trouble....Therefore...no one is "out". If they don't charge the restocking fee, then it's all part of their 'service'for potential income. There is no obligation for the labour part should you change your mind as long as you give them notice of the change of heart so their repair shop is not twittling their thumbs waiting for you to show up and ultimately don't. A no show is definitely unethical. Their shop will then continue on with business as usual and again they are 'out' nothing.
If it were me, I would offer them my apologies for the change of mind, and explain the 'why' this happened.If your insurance company doesn't need proof of the repair, then it's all up to you to do the repair anyway you choose or not do it at all. As far as I understand, insurance companies will provide a cash payout directly to their insuree (which may be substantially less than the actual claim) or pay the full amount to theservice provider.
If it were me, I would offer them my apologies for the change of mind, and explain the 'why' this happened.If your insurance company doesn't need proof of the repair, then it's all up to you to do the repair anyway you choose or not do it at all. As far as I understand, insurance companies will provide a cash payout directly to their insuree (which may be substantially less than the actual claim) or pay the full amount to theservice provider.
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