Tech Tip #302

 

Got the bike from the dealer yesterday. They said it was running rough because of the stage 1 flash withjust anair cleaner and no pipes. They re-flashedthe ECMto stock and put the original air cleaner back on. About 100 miles on it since and she runs smooth and hasn't thrown a new code either.

I bought it with the air cleaner and stage 1 flash installed and was told by 3 dealers in CA,I could not add pipesto my 07 without loosing my warranty. Choice was pipes with stock air cleaner or the air cleaner and flash but not both. Soooo, I took my slip-ons and PCIII off before taking it in for the 5K to save my warranty and this dealer, TX,said no problems with pipes, PCIII or such and will not affect warranty. Just not sure who to believe. Being in the military I move around alot and do not stay with one dealer. I think I will just keep her stock for now......

 

I've found outwhen the muffler (s) are in a bind on the rear hangers the bike will vibration .. etc

 

Bout 400 miles on it and it still runs smooth. Went ahead and put my PCIII and Rush mufflers back on and took her for about a 100 mile jaunt, and it is sweet as ever. I might put the SE air cleaner back on down the road, I cannot believe all the issues were because of an air cleaner. I'm thinking something else was set straight?

Who knows, I'm just happy with the smoothness of the engine now.

 

Daconiam - I am going through the same BS that you went through. I didn't throw codes and I have an 05 RKCustom stock. Ran rough, stop let it heat soak, runs smooth as glass. Now it just runs rough all the time. PCIII improved the throttle response but it is still running rough (kind of like chugging) even though I'm not lugging the engine it feels like it. Dealer - No trouble found, unable to duplicate customer complaint (that should be their motto). Fuel pressure 58 and steady (not sure if they shut it down to check pressure retention). Ran another compression check when the bike was good and warm and it was 145 psi in each cylinder which makes me think that I haven't cooked a valve - yet. Spark plug wires were in spec at 6600 ohms and both plugs are firing. Replaced the plugs with 6500 miles on them. Bike is definitely running lean but the map for a stock bike on the PCIII did not solve the problem. Cleaned the battery connections and ground connections. Sprayed the carp out of the intake gasket area with wd-40 (bike shouldn't rust in that area for awhile) and no noticeable change in idle. I have new intake manifold gaskets and I'm going to replace those and reset the manifold assembly. I don't remember if it was the rocker covers or the rocker box gaskets that were replaced by the dealer. That is the only work thats been done (if it were the box) that could have caused the intake manifold problem. I want to get this problem corrected before I spend the money to get the dyno tune done. I would imagine a problem that is causing rough running would render the dyno tune performed under those conditions pretty pretty pretty pretty useless.

Glad to see that you got your issues sorted out, it gives me hope.

 

Normally (I am beginning to dislike that word), if on day of delivery you have the dealer do the stage one (A/C and download, it becomes part of the bikes basic warranty.
Somehow they have to make it right for you, because you paid money for that to be done. check the HD parts and accessories catalog for those two items and there is a note in the 07 one saying this (warranty covered).
Stage one does NOT normally include mufflers and most times you can change out mufflers without doing the other changes.
Having O2 sensors and catalytic mufflers may change this.
But there is NO reason for timing to be excessively advanced at idle.
If you don't believe me, go to any highschool, college or trade school and ask the instructor.
For those that don't know.
You advance the spark timing at faster engine speeds, to give the spark the time it needs to be established and fire the fuel mixture at the right moment in time. when the engine slows down it no longer needs this advance.
Something is not right if engaging the hand brake on ABS systems advances the timing.
Something is back bleeding to the ECM when it shouldn't.
I don't have a detailed operations manual on what all takes place when the ABS is activated during normal operation;I.E. traveling down the road.
IMO excessive spark advance at idle over time will create internal engine issues such as burned intake valves. Again check with an instructor.
someone asked about checking for intake leaks,
A spray bottle of water is the safest. spray it around the intake to cylinder head joints. If Engine RPM drops there is a vacuum leak at that point.

IAC is idle air control (motor), this is controlled by the ECM during engine warm up, much like a hand choke. When engine is warmed up it should be fully open.
an overly rich mixture at idle can cause the various sensors (map,knock, O2, etc) to do funny things.
However, in most closed loop fuel injection systems these sensors do nothing when the engine is cold. The engine relies on head temp sensor and a basic start / run map in the ECM. When head temp gets to preset temp then the other sensors come into play and tell ECM how to modify fuel and timing.
A Faulty head temp could let engine think it's cold when it's not, leading to a rich condition possibly causing the rough idle after engine is warmed up.

Whatever it turns out to be it sounds like a warranty issue. But most likely the dealer and moco will try to put you off with it's normal.

stick to your guns and be prepared.

 

I have an 08 Ultra and since new it has a rough idle.The dealer said its a "stroker motor" and its supposed to idle rough like that. Ok, its more like a motor shaking at idle instead of a rough idle. I could be confusing rought idle and the stroker motor. At times the engine sputters and acts like it wants to cut off but hasn't so far. 1150 miles on it so far. Going to biketoberfest on Wed. hopefully I won't have to call Road side service.

 

I was going to say that I didn't think it was a ignition problem as much as a vacum leak or a problem in the fuel management system.I think you asked about ohm injectors yes that can be done. As far as taking a shot gun approach to repairing the bike(replacing plugs,wires etc) I would take it to aHD dealer that has someone that understandsthe fuel injection system.I've been in the automotive business for over thirty years and when we started the bike business it was amazing how many "certified" bike technicians were in the stone age compared to my car techs.The codes are designed to sense a fault in the system. It doesn't mean you go the bottom of the repair chart and replace the O2 sensor for a Po152, but you actually check what can cause that.....drippy injector, vacum leak, wiring etc.Often times to many people take the shot gun approach.I guess I would have to look at the o2 stream to give an opinion......is it running lean driving rich to correct a problem?

 

I am torqued off that they changed out the cleaner and went back to the stock download to "fix" my bike. They tried to charge me a half hour labor to "fix" it also. They did nottalk tome about this either, meaning that this was the final fix. I provided the stock air cleaner and was told this was for a test/comparison. After about 2000 miles the bike still runs smooth (the problem was not just at idle but if it had a rough idle then it ran rough/"shuddery" also). So about $400.00 (price of stage 1 download/air cleaner/labor)down the drain and not sure what I will say at my 10k service.

I really did not expect the dealer to get my bike right, they have failed me on everything else so far. As far as I'm concerned they should have made it right with the way it was, but for now I put on my slip-ons and my PCIII and it runs as good with them on as without them. I know I do not have the full stage 1 without the cleaner but I do have a bike I enjoy riding now.

Won't get into the 5th gear whine.....lol

 

My '07 RKC has been idling and running pretty rough too. I've pretty much narrowed it down, in my mind, to either an untrue crank or a confused ECM. Since the vibration varies precisely with RPM and is present nearly the same while cruising steady and while pulling the clutch in to match engine speed I'd think it was a balance problem. I'd also be inclined to exclude the confused ECM possibility since it vibrates about the same on the way up in revs no-load and on the way back down closed throttle.

But then again, it seems to be less or more present from day to day, so unless the crank is continually shifting around (it'd have to be assembled pretty loosely for that) I tend to rule the crank assembly itself out. The intensity also seems to be at least partly related to engine temperature, getting worse (though not greatly) as the engine warms. This swings me back toward the confused ECM again.

I got a real kick out of the recent thread where the guy was (is still) on a road trip and picked up a low-speed wobble. The local shop where he was has now changed out the steering head and swingarm pivot bearings, and a whole slew of other things and have not yet got to the bottom of it (the "shotgun approach comment just above prompted this reply).

I don't want to start throwing sensors/parts at it, and I don't want the dealer to, either. Doing so will tie up precious remaining ride time for the season. But if I wait too long in the season to get it into the shop, it might never warm up enough to clearly show the problem. A real dilemma, h'uh?

I've been giving some thought to bouncing the idea of reflashing my still-stock ECU off the service manager and seeing if that doesn't "fix" it. The recent post in this thread where the new -E download cured it really makes me want to try that, and I'm resolved now to try that as the first thing to do.

Another thing that fairly cements the idea of ECU-confusion in my mind is that when I initially installed the PC-III and set the throttle limits, the values were 26xx for 0% and 16xxx for 100%. They were that way for a long time, thousands of miles. Then one day the bike was idling high and when I checked, it showed as several percent for closed throttle. I reset the limits on the PC-III again and now they're at 47xx and 28xxx. When I discussed this briefly with Jamie at Fuelmoto, he said the latter numbers are the ones he typically sees and has never seen the former.

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