Starter issues - Need advice
#11
01-07-2020 | 08:11 AM
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Cruiser
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 161
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From: NW Georgia
MegaJohn a LOT of us have been through this exact same scenario with the 96" touring bikes. The compensator clutches were junk and caused kickback which wears out the starter clutch when they get weak. In most cases just replacing the starter clutch is all that is necessary to get it starting right but there is a good chance your compensator sprocket is weak as well. Those comps just basically have a stack of curved washers in them for springs. When they start to flatten out they loose their grip. The bike will still ride fine but when it is hot when you turn it off in neutral you may hear a clunk sometimes. That is a sure fire indication it is worn out and needs replacing. I think my dealer said Harley is on about their fifth revision of that part.
My 2010 Ultra Classic started getting hard to start when hot at just over 30,000 miles. All the connections checked out and I even replaced the battery and it didn't make any difference. I finally found some YouTube videos detailing the problem. I replaced the starter clutch with an All ***** unit and it has been fine ever since. After replacing the clutch though I would still hear kickback when starting the bike hot because the comp was worn. I replaced it with the current Screamin Eagle part and it starts just like new now every time.
Here is a link to a video detailing the compensator noise when it is worn:
Harley Compensator Noise
Here is a link to the video I watched detailing the starter clutch diagnosis and replacement:
1 of 2 - Harley Horrible Starter Noise 2009 Road King - How to change starter clutch
The fellow in the starter problem video also has a worn out compensator sprocket. When he shuts the bike off you can hear the clunk. I think I remember someone saying that Harley recommends replacing the clutch and comp at the same time on these bikes. I realize your situation may be completely different but this double whammy problem has been cropping up for years on these bikes so I figured I'd post these links in case you are hearing the same sounds.
Good luck.
My 2010 Ultra Classic started getting hard to start when hot at just over 30,000 miles. All the connections checked out and I even replaced the battery and it didn't make any difference. I finally found some YouTube videos detailing the problem. I replaced the starter clutch with an All ***** unit and it has been fine ever since. After replacing the clutch though I would still hear kickback when starting the bike hot because the comp was worn. I replaced it with the current Screamin Eagle part and it starts just like new now every time.
Here is a link to a video detailing the compensator noise when it is worn:
Harley Compensator Noise
Here is a link to the video I watched detailing the starter clutch diagnosis and replacement:
1 of 2 - Harley Horrible Starter Noise 2009 Road King - How to change starter clutch
The fellow in the starter problem video also has a worn out compensator sprocket. When he shuts the bike off you can hear the clunk. I think I remember someone saying that Harley recommends replacing the clutch and comp at the same time on these bikes. I realize your situation may be completely different but this double whammy problem has been cropping up for years on these bikes so I figured I'd post these links in case you are hearing the same sounds.
Good luck.
I had already watched the starter diagnose/replace video Sunday afternoon and yeah, that's what my starter sounds like. I think I'll be ordering the clutch this week.
I suspect I have issues with the compensator too since I can hear it clanking a bit on startup/shutdown... and will put that one on the to-do/purchase list. From what I have seen/read it sounds like the SE compensator is much better than the stock one used in 2009. Most seem to recommend the SE part.
I've owned the bike for 2 years (first Harley) and read many posts & seen many videos about the compansator. I expected to replace it eventually. It doesn't look like a horrible job... I should be able to do it myself.
Ride Safely!
John.
#13
01-07-2020 | 09:49 AM
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From: Winnipeg
#14
01-07-2020 | 12:10 PM
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From: SE,GA
#15
01-07-2020 | 03:39 PM
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From: Oklahoma
You have the classic symptoms of starter clutch starting to fail. There is a chance it is a ring gear problem but that is relatively rare. The compensator pictured above is the stock unit until 2011. The COIL spring in the canoin the rotor is too weak for the job and the compensator bottoms out (slams against the stop) and feeds the shock back into the starter and causes early failure of the starter clutch. Replacing ONLY the starter clutch will start you back into the same failure cycle you are in now IF you don't replace the compensator also. Unfortunately that also requires replacing the rotor under the compensator as no new compensator, Harley or after market, will work with you present rotor. I now have 80,000 miles on my All ***** starter clutch because I had the same problem years ago. I replaced the stock compensator with the Screaming Eagle style (including the rotor) and all has been well since. Replace the starter clutch only if money is tight but you will be back into the primary again soon enough to finish the job (new compensator) and possibly another starter clutch too. There are plenty of videos covering this whole operation, and the shop manual would be a big help also. Wish the news were better (less expensive) but this is most likely your situation.
#16
01-07-2020 | 05:54 PM
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From: Southern Virginia
Yep btsom is exactly right I forgot to mention the rotor it's been a while since I went through this. Do it all at once if you can it will definitely be a more reliable repair.
I replaced the starter clutch first just to split the job up and yes it did start reliably but I could hear a nasty kickback when starting the motor hot. If I had left it that way it would have just worn out the new clutch. The next week I replaced the compensator and all has been well since.
I replaced the starter clutch first just to split the job up and yes it did start reliably but I could hear a nasty kickback when starting the motor hot. If I had left it that way it would have just worn out the new clutch. The next week I replaced the compensator and all has been well since.
#17
01-07-2020 | 06:58 PM
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From: Oklahoma
MegaJohn, there is a ball bearing under, I believe the starter drive shaft on the starter end, not the bendix end which is easy to overlook or forget. Don't forget it. Second, if you decide to do the whole job, either do the compensator while the starter is removed of DISCONNECT the battery. The starter, if activated at the wrong time can AMPUTATE fingers. Most directions say to also remove the clutch (LEFT HANDED THREAD) and remove the compensator and clutch together because the chain is not flexible from side to side. My experience is that removing the tensioner is easier and makes plenty of slack in the chain to remove the compensator without removing the clutch To reinstall the the tensioner it must be collapsed and held in that position until it is back in place with the bolts installed. A cable tie will hold it once it is collapsed. A thin putty knife wedged between the ratcheting teeth will allow sliding the ratchet to the fully collapsed position. It is 10 years old and has been through lots of heat cycles and probably would be best to also replace it while you are in there. Some JB Weld to glue the little oil cup also works well, remove all oil remnants with lacquer thinner or other strong solvent (brake cleaner) for effective bonding. The rotor magnets are very strong and you will get a terrible finger pinch if the rotor pulls itself back onto the stator while you have a finger under the rotor lip. It is the last 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch to the fully installed position when the magnets grab HARD. Hopefully the videos cover any other important stuff.
Last edited by btsom; 01-07-2020 at 07:01 PM.
#18
01-08-2020 | 07:16 AM
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Cruiser
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From: NW Georgia
Thanks to everyone for the responses. Hopefully there is no damage to the ring gear... I'll check it when I pull the starter. I have the starter clutch on order. It looks like a new compensator is also in my future... I'll get the materials needed and swap it out in the near future.
I'm looking at the HD SE compensator... it seems to have good reviews. The kit (P/N 40100061) seems to include most everything needed (compensator, rotor, oil deflectors, shims, etc)... additional parts needed would include the chain tensioner and primary gasket. Other than oil, adhesive, some sort of tool to lock the chain to remove/install, a big socket, and some way to measure compensator/clutch alignment... is there anything else needed?
Ride Safely!
John.
I'm looking at the HD SE compensator... it seems to have good reviews. The kit (P/N 40100061) seems to include most everything needed (compensator, rotor, oil deflectors, shims, etc)... additional parts needed would include the chain tensioner and primary gasket. Other than oil, adhesive, some sort of tool to lock the chain to remove/install, a big socket, and some way to measure compensator/clutch alignment... is there anything else needed?
Ride Safely!
John.
#19
01-08-2020 | 08:20 AM
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From: Winnipeg
John, I wouldn’t rush to replace the compensator $$ . Mines a 2010 and was sounding exactly like what you described. Replaced the starter clutch last season and it’s been fine since.
also the ball bearing referred to is positioned inside the starter clutch shaft at the end of the long spring (you’ll see it when you separate the case)
it will usually roll out on its own. The new starter clutch will likely have the ball bearing already in place sitting in a blob of grease (so it won’t roll out)
All ***** come like this. Some have dropped the old one back in thinking there wasn’t one and ended up with 2 of them in the shaft....don’t want to do that.
good luck.
also the ball bearing referred to is positioned inside the starter clutch shaft at the end of the long spring (you’ll see it when you separate the case)
it will usually roll out on its own. The new starter clutch will likely have the ball bearing already in place sitting in a blob of grease (so it won’t roll out)
All ***** come like this. Some have dropped the old one back in thinking there wasn’t one and ended up with 2 of them in the shaft....don’t want to do that.
good luck.
#20
01-08-2020 | 08:21 AM
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From: Oklahoma
I wore out my original design SE comp in about 80,000 miles. The splines of the crank shaft extension piece were about half way worn through. I replaced it late last summer and then went on a 1700 mile trip. By the time I got back home the spring tension had decreased enough that the new comp was noisy especially on easy starts from a stop. Having the old belleville springs from the original SE comp, I installed one of the medium springs as a shim to increase the spring preload again and all is quiet and smooth again. Moral of the story: I suggest getting one of the shim packs and installing it with the new comp and avoid having to go in a second time. In my humble opinion as a shade tree mechanic (not an engineer) I would get rid of the smallest spring and replace it with 2 shim packs and let the medium and large springs do the work. If I have to go in again, that will be my plan. Until you get your comp hardware in hand, you probably can't picture what I am talking about but it will be obvious once you see all of the parts. I used to have the part number for the shim pack but lost it when I had to do a recovery on this computer. I originally got it from a Google search, so the info is out there.