HD Super Tuners issue
#21
09-08-2016, 09:28 PM
Ultimate HDF Member
Harley made some on the tuners and kits but they had a business model..... keep the dealers profitable. Why offer performance parts they could have put in from the factory? The dealer network is a big deal to the moco. You can see it on the relocations next to major highways and the waiting rooms in service that are nicer than my house. I am more interested to see what the impact is on the dealers than me from that standpoint. I am concerned for me when i am doing my own wrenching on parts and availability. The costs very well might be passed on to us.
Last edited by todd-67; 09-08-2016 at 09:30 PM.
#22
09-09-2016, 07:17 AM
And while you're kinda right the EPA like the FDA they have the right to shut you down while you pick your fight. No production of parts and or bikes. Share holders wont have it. Board would get sued..... etc.
Best to shut up and take it knowing that the aftermarket is already in the new ECM and if you want to live off the grid you can. When the decree expires the dealerships will go back to biz... just no non compliant parts from the moco.
Best to shut up and take it knowing that the aftermarket is already in the new ECM and if you want to live off the grid you can. When the decree expires the dealerships will go back to biz... just no non compliant parts from the moco.
#23
09-09-2016, 09:09 AM
Road Master
How is a Ford ECU locked down? You can get programmers for most of their current product line. As a matter of fact, you can for almost any vehicle that has enough demand for a performance tuner. Some are 50 state legal, and some are not. But the fact they are locked isn't true unless I missed your point.
#24
09-09-2016, 11:45 AM
Ultimate HDF Member
The company I used to work for was shut down by the FDA for far less than what Harley was doing. Came into work one morning and the place was locked down only the office was allowed in. All the machines were yellow taped off. The hourly work force was brought back in later in the day in groups and laid off. At the end of it all 400 worker lost their jobs and that plant is shut down until the FDA gives the OK. Non of the effected products could be sold in the USA. That was 3 years ago and they are still shutdown.
Last edited by todd-67; 09-09-2016 at 12:04 PM.
#25
09-09-2016, 12:35 PM
Road Warrior
There's a line in this. The OEM has an obligation to deliver vehicles that are EPA compliant. The EPA would not stand for an OEM delivering an EPA compliant vehicle to the dealers if the EPA compliant version is not ending up in customers' hands. You need to look at extremes. If an OEM shipped every vehicle as EPA compliant but also shipped all of the performance parts most users wanted as part of the package, well then very few would end up EPA compliant on the road. The EPA expects the OEM to deliver compliant vehicles and that they encourage (I know loaded terminology) the customers keep them that way. By Harley selling a tuner has Harley endorsing such, and as the OEM they should not be doing that, according to the EPA. It is about picking your fight, but Harley probably didn't make squat on their tuners, in the big picture anyway, so it most definitely was not worth the fight. Putting your business on hold while litigation ensues is just stupid from a manufacturers standpoint. Frankly Harley should have known better. As the owner of a diesel truck I've heard the EPA argument for years. Yet the aftermarket still sells everything they did before to anyone with a credit card. So will it continue for motorcycle parts, EPA compliant or otherwise for the foreseeable future. Eventually modifying a vehicle will become either impossible or impracticle, but that won't happen in 2017 or even 2020 or even 2025. So everyone relax, situation hasn't changed, just Harley doesn't sell a Harley tuner. No biggie, many others out there! My understanding is it wasn't a great tool anyway.
#26
09-09-2016, 12:57 PM
Grand HDF Member
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#27
09-09-2016, 07:24 PM
Road Warrior
But, I digress.
Serious questions require serious answers.
The EPA had to much time on their hands and found something to do.
Rob
#28
09-09-2016, 09:16 PM
what are you guys worried about. Fuel moto is already tuning the M8 with the power vision. HD/Delphi didn't make it any harder to change the ECM parameters. They just cant sell you the super tuner anymore that allowed full access to change all parameters in the ECM. They are offering another tuner that is limited to EPA/CARB parameters.
What the future holds is un-known at this point. Could the EPA go after companies like Dynojet? Absolutely. Even though they market products for "off road use only". There is more than enough proof these tuners being used for street purposes for the EPA go after them. All they have to do is look at forums like HD Forum. There are HD forum sponsors that sell these products to all of us and we all post here everyday talking about how we use them to break the law and ride our NON EPA compliant bike on public streets. Dynojet trains people to use their tuning software and Dynos all the time. Ever looked on their site for the Certified Dyojet Tuning Facilties? An under cover EPA agent could sit and watch bike riders take their bikes in for a tune and watch them ride off on public roads the same day. That would be all the proof they would ever need.
What the future holds is un-known at this point. Could the EPA go after companies like Dynojet? Absolutely. Even though they market products for "off road use only". There is more than enough proof these tuners being used for street purposes for the EPA go after them. All they have to do is look at forums like HD Forum. There are HD forum sponsors that sell these products to all of us and we all post here everyday talking about how we use them to break the law and ride our NON EPA compliant bike on public streets. Dynojet trains people to use their tuning software and Dynos all the time. Ever looked on their site for the Certified Dyojet Tuning Facilties? An under cover EPA agent could sit and watch bike riders take their bikes in for a tune and watch them ride off on public roads the same day. That would be all the proof they would ever need.
Last edited by liquidr1; 09-09-2016 at 09:20 PM.
#29
09-09-2016, 10:34 PM
The SEPST, along with the Vance & Hines Fuel Pack, the Dynojet Power Commander, and The Turbo Shop TTS tuner, are all capable of making any motorcycle utterly non-CARB compliant, non-EPA compliant, effing illegal.
The EPA really doesn't care about that.
What finally pissed off the EPA enough for them to call the Motor Company, attorney-to-attorney, and say: "Dude? WTF?!? Seriously? You're effing DONE.", was the fact that the Motor Company told the EPA that all of their new motorcycles were legal, and then before even HANDING THE EFFING FOB TO THE NEW BUYER, they would offer to sell you an SEPST and Screamin' Eagle bits and pieces, and make your brand new motorcycle totally illegal, and put the new parts under the two year factory warranty.
The EPA put up with the Motor Company spitting in their face for quite a while, but eventually, enough was enough.
