Our first ever DOT helmet police stop.... yep
#82
05-02-2011, 01:19 PM
Road Captain
However this is not about helmets, it is about ensuring that the police follow the law. If they are going to stop and charge people they should at least be familiar with the statutes under which they are charging them.
If there is no law saying you cannot do something their should be severe penalties for charging someone for doing it. Until there is police will be free to make up laws as they go.
A police officer should be absolutely certain there is an infraction of the law before they issue a citation or make a stop. Otherwise they should leave the person alone. Charging someone with a crime you just made up should be a reason for losing your job.
I do not go along with the idea that we have to allow the government leway by saying that the police cannot be expected to know all the laws. The saying that ignorance of the law is no excuse should fly both ways.
Michael
#83
05-02-2011, 01:21 PM
I live in Norfolk, VA which is 25 min from VA beach oceanfront... the VAB popo do crap like that ALL the time! I never go to VAB oceanfront and most of the people I know hate VAB for this purpose. At the VAB oceanfront they will stop you for just looking at them funny... looks to me they would serve better handing out food to the needy instead of trying to stop people on "suspicion". In VA it seems like laws do not pertain to the people that enforce them... what's good for the goose should be good for the gander
#84
05-02-2011, 02:35 PM
Tourer
Heres a heads up. I just got this e-mail.
__________________________________________________ ______
From: matt@motorcyclelawgroup.com
Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 12:01:23 -0400
Subject: Tickets Issued at Virginia Beach Bike Classic
The Virginia Beach Bike Classic was held this weekend at North Beach landing in Virginia Beach, Virginia. It was great to be there and see a lot of friends from Virginia and the Carolinas. However the event was marred by law enforcement. The Virginia State Police in conjunction with the Virginia Beach Police Department set up a few miles from the event and wrote tickets for offenses such as unapproved helmets, illegal exhausts, improperly mounted license plates, etc. It was reported at one point that they were refusing those without a “DOT Approved” helmet to proceed further and forced them to go back to the event a buy a new helmet.
If you or anyone that you know received such a ticket at the Virginia Beach Bike Classic please contact me and I will represent you at no charge. These charges are improper given the law in Virginia. For those in favor of mandatory helmet use this is not an attack on helmets. I respect the right of every motorcyclist to hold an opinion on this matter. However this is not about helmets, it is about ensuring that the police follow the law. If they are going to stop and charge people they should at least be familiar with the statutes under which they are charging them.
I also want to reiterate that I am not anti-law enforcement. As an ex police officer and an ex prosecuting attorney I have an extensive law enforcement background. However, to many times I see motorcyclists charged for not wearing a helmet approved by DOT when the law in Virginia does not require that a helmet be approved by anyone. I also see tickets for illegal exhausts merely because the officer does not like the sound of the exhaust. I have seen tickets for improperly mounted license plates merely because the license plate is mounted vertically instead of horizontally. Virginia law does not prohibit vertically mounted license plates. I have even seen a few handle bar height tickets when that law was repealed in 2003. You are not guilty of an offense simply because an officer says that you are. You are only guilty if you have violated a statute or ordinance. A great number of people charged at the Virginia Beach Bike Classic did not violate any state or local law.
That is why I think it is important to challenge these tickets even though they are non-moving violations. If we as motorcyclists merely pre-pay them because it is too much of a hassle to go to court and fight then we will continue to receive improperly issued tickets. So if you have received such a ticket please contact me and I will be happy to take the case(s) at no charge.
Matt Danielson
McGrath & Danielson
Tom McGrath's Motorcycle Law Group
1-800-321-8968
Motorcyclelawgroup.com
__________________________________________________ ______
From: matt@motorcyclelawgroup.com
Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 12:01:23 -0400
Subject: Tickets Issued at Virginia Beach Bike Classic
The Virginia Beach Bike Classic was held this weekend at North Beach landing in Virginia Beach, Virginia. It was great to be there and see a lot of friends from Virginia and the Carolinas. However the event was marred by law enforcement. The Virginia State Police in conjunction with the Virginia Beach Police Department set up a few miles from the event and wrote tickets for offenses such as unapproved helmets, illegal exhausts, improperly mounted license plates, etc. It was reported at one point that they were refusing those without a “DOT Approved” helmet to proceed further and forced them to go back to the event a buy a new helmet.
If you or anyone that you know received such a ticket at the Virginia Beach Bike Classic please contact me and I will represent you at no charge. These charges are improper given the law in Virginia. For those in favor of mandatory helmet use this is not an attack on helmets. I respect the right of every motorcyclist to hold an opinion on this matter. However this is not about helmets, it is about ensuring that the police follow the law. If they are going to stop and charge people they should at least be familiar with the statutes under which they are charging them.
I also want to reiterate that I am not anti-law enforcement. As an ex police officer and an ex prosecuting attorney I have an extensive law enforcement background. However, to many times I see motorcyclists charged for not wearing a helmet approved by DOT when the law in Virginia does not require that a helmet be approved by anyone. I also see tickets for illegal exhausts merely because the officer does not like the sound of the exhaust. I have seen tickets for improperly mounted license plates merely because the license plate is mounted vertically instead of horizontally. Virginia law does not prohibit vertically mounted license plates. I have even seen a few handle bar height tickets when that law was repealed in 2003. You are not guilty of an offense simply because an officer says that you are. You are only guilty if you have violated a statute or ordinance. A great number of people charged at the Virginia Beach Bike Classic did not violate any state or local law.
That is why I think it is important to challenge these tickets even though they are non-moving violations. If we as motorcyclists merely pre-pay them because it is too much of a hassle to go to court and fight then we will continue to receive improperly issued tickets. So if you have received such a ticket please contact me and I will be happy to take the case(s) at no charge.
Matt Danielson
McGrath & Danielson
Tom McGrath's Motorcycle Law Group
1-800-321-8968
Motorcyclelawgroup.com
§ 46.2-910. Motorcyclist to wear helmets, etc.; certain sales prohibited; penalty.
A. Every person operating a motorcycle shall wear a face shield, safety glasses or goggles, or have his motorcycle equipped with safety glass or a windshield at all times while operating the vehicle, and operators and any passengers thereon shall wear protective helmets. Operators and passengers riding on motorcycles with wheels of eight inches or less in diameter or in three-wheeled motorcycles which have nonremovable roofs, windshields and enclosed bodies shall not be required to wear protective helmets. The windshields, face shields, glasses or goggles, and protective helmets required by this section shall meet or exceed the standards and specifications of the Snell Memorial Foundation, the American National Standards Institute, Inc., or the federal Department of Transportation. Failure to wear a face shield, safety glasses or goggles, or protective helmets shall not constitute negligence per se in any civil proceeding. The provisions of this section requiring the wearing of protective helmets shall not apply to operators of or passengers on motorcycles being operated (i) as part of an organized parade authorized by the Department of Transportation or the locality in which the parade is being conducted and escorted, accompanied, or participated in by law-enforcement officers of the jurisdiction wherein the parade is held and (ii) at speeds of no more than fifteen miles per hour.
No motorcycle operator shall use any face shield, safety glasses or goggles, or have his motorcycle equipped with safety glass or a windshield unless of a type either (i) approved by the Superintendent prior to July 1, 1996, or (ii) that meets or exceeds the standards and specifications of the Snell Memorial Foundation, the American National Standards Institute, Inc., or the federal Department of Transportation and is marked in accordance with such standards.
B. It shall be unlawful to sell or offer for sale, for highway use in Virginia, any protective helmet that fails to meet or exceed any standard as provided in the foregoing provisions of this section. Any violation of this subsection shall constitute a Class 4 misdemeanor.
(Code 1950, §§ 46-183.1, 46-183.2; 1954, c. 204; 1958, c. 541, § 46.1-172; 1968, c. 498; 1970, cc. 29, 99; 1982, cc. 390, 681; 1989, cc. 6, 727; 1996, c. 690; 1998, c. 789.)
Skid lids do not "meet or exceed" any of those three standards. He's correct in that it doesn't have to be certified, at least as far as this statute is concerned, but it does need to meet those standards.
#87
05-02-2011, 04:08 PM
I'm addressing the bolded part, which is somewhat misleading. Here's the Virginia statute which does require that the helmet meet or exceed certain standards, with the relevant part underlined:
§ 46.2-910. Motorcyclist to wear helmets, etc.; certain sales prohibited; penalty.
A. Every person operating a motorcycle shall wear a face shield, safety glasses or goggles, or have his motorcycle equipped with safety glass or a windshield at all times while operating the vehicle, and operators and any passengers thereon shall wear protective helmets. Operators and passengers riding on motorcycles with wheels of eight inches or less in diameter or in three-wheeled motorcycles which have nonremovable roofs, windshields and enclosed bodies shall not be required to wear protective helmets. The windshields, face shields, glasses or goggles, and protective helmets required by this section shall meet or exceed the standards and specifications of the Snell Memorial Foundation, the American National Standards Institute, Inc., or the federal Department of Transportation. Failure to wear a face shield, safety glasses or goggles, or protective helmets shall not constitute negligence per se in any civil proceeding. The provisions of this section requiring the wearing of protective helmets shall not apply to operators of or passengers on motorcycles being operated (i) as part of an organized parade authorized by the Department of Transportation or the locality in which the parade is being conducted and escorted, accompanied, or participated in by law-enforcement officers of the jurisdiction wherein the parade is held and (ii) at speeds of no more than fifteen miles per hour.
No motorcycle operator shall use any face shield, safety glasses or goggles, or have his motorcycle equipped with safety glass or a windshield unless of a type either (i) approved by the Superintendent prior to July 1, 1996, or (ii) that meets or exceeds the standards and specifications of the Snell Memorial Foundation, the American National Standards Institute, Inc., or the federal Department of Transportation and is marked in accordance with such standards.
B. It shall be unlawful to sell or offer for sale, for highway use in Virginia, any protective helmet that fails to meet or exceed any standard as provided in the foregoing provisions of this section. Any violation of this subsection shall constitute a Class 4 misdemeanor.
(Code 1950, §§ 46-183.1, 46-183.2; 1954, c. 204; 1958, c. 541, § 46.1-172; 1968, c. 498; 1970, cc. 29, 99; 1982, cc. 390, 681; 1989, cc. 6, 727; 1996, c. 690; 1998, c. 789.)
Skid lids do not "meet or exceed" any of those three standards. He's correct in that it doesn't have to be certified, at least as far as this statute is concerned, but it does need to meet those standards.
§ 46.2-910. Motorcyclist to wear helmets, etc.; certain sales prohibited; penalty.
A. Every person operating a motorcycle shall wear a face shield, safety glasses or goggles, or have his motorcycle equipped with safety glass or a windshield at all times while operating the vehicle, and operators and any passengers thereon shall wear protective helmets. Operators and passengers riding on motorcycles with wheels of eight inches or less in diameter or in three-wheeled motorcycles which have nonremovable roofs, windshields and enclosed bodies shall not be required to wear protective helmets. The windshields, face shields, glasses or goggles, and protective helmets required by this section shall meet or exceed the standards and specifications of the Snell Memorial Foundation, the American National Standards Institute, Inc., or the federal Department of Transportation. Failure to wear a face shield, safety glasses or goggles, or protective helmets shall not constitute negligence per se in any civil proceeding. The provisions of this section requiring the wearing of protective helmets shall not apply to operators of or passengers on motorcycles being operated (i) as part of an organized parade authorized by the Department of Transportation or the locality in which the parade is being conducted and escorted, accompanied, or participated in by law-enforcement officers of the jurisdiction wherein the parade is held and (ii) at speeds of no more than fifteen miles per hour.
No motorcycle operator shall use any face shield, safety glasses or goggles, or have his motorcycle equipped with safety glass or a windshield unless of a type either (i) approved by the Superintendent prior to July 1, 1996, or (ii) that meets or exceeds the standards and specifications of the Snell Memorial Foundation, the American National Standards Institute, Inc., or the federal Department of Transportation and is marked in accordance with such standards.
B. It shall be unlawful to sell or offer for sale, for highway use in Virginia, any protective helmet that fails to meet or exceed any standard as provided in the foregoing provisions of this section. Any violation of this subsection shall constitute a Class 4 misdemeanor.
(Code 1950, §§ 46-183.1, 46-183.2; 1954, c. 204; 1958, c. 541, § 46.1-172; 1968, c. 498; 1970, cc. 29, 99; 1982, cc. 390, 681; 1989, cc. 6, 727; 1996, c. 690; 1998, c. 789.)
Skid lids do not "meet or exceed" any of those three standards. He's correct in that it doesn't have to be certified, at least as far as this statute is concerned, but it does need to meet those standards.
The point is that the law is putting the onus of proof of compliance on the citizen. That should not be the case, the law, in order to be lawful must be unambiguous, fair and reasonable. Since I'm not an engineer, if I go to a store to buy a helmet and I pick one up that says it meets FMVSS 218, how do I know it is legal by this law? That's not Snell or ANSI or DOT. Speaking of, DOT doesn't issue equipment standards, so the VA law is unenforceable again. Now, helmet manufacturers do put DOT stickers on their helmets but that sticker doesn't actually mean anything from a legal standpoint other than it is a requirement of FMVSS 218 which VA law doesn't require.
If you argue that the manufacturer should affix a label stating that it meets Snell, ANSI, FMVSS 218, etc...well technically I could do that too and no cop on the planet could prove me wrong on the side of the road. He'd have to have it tested, which again would destroy the helmet. Even then, all I have to say is it was there when I bought it. You can't hold me accountable unless you could somehow prove that I put the label in there.
#88
05-02-2011, 08:11 PM
Cruiser
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Amarillo, TX
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It should be a crime to charge anyone with a made up law. I am not referring to an honest mistake where an officer believes you broke a law that is on the books. I am only talking about cases when they charge you with something that is not on the books.
If there is no law saying you cannot do something their should be severe penalties for charging someone for doing it. Until there is police will be free to make up laws as they go.
A police officer should be absolutely certain there is an infraction of the law before they issue a citation or make a stop. Otherwise they should leave the person alone. Charging someone with a crime you just made up should be a reason for losing your job.
I do not go along with the idea that we have to allow the government leway by saying that the police cannot be expected to know all the laws. The saying that ignorance of the law is no excuse should fly both ways.
Michael
If there is no law saying you cannot do something their should be severe penalties for charging someone for doing it. Until there is police will be free to make up laws as they go.
A police officer should be absolutely certain there is an infraction of the law before they issue a citation or make a stop. Otherwise they should leave the person alone. Charging someone with a crime you just made up should be a reason for losing your job.
I do not go along with the idea that we have to allow the government leway by saying that the police cannot be expected to know all the laws. The saying that ignorance of the law is no excuse should fly both ways.
Michael
#89
05-02-2011, 08:42 PM
Grand HDF Member
But at least a fk'n dumbshit liberal wacked Osama Bin Laden's bony-***, something those fk'n dumbshit conservative wacko's couldn't do. But, they did do a fine job highlighting the problems with the birth certificate. I can hear it already: We want to see the real death certificate, the full page one, not the short version! 
Who do you think TOLD Obama what was what? Who did he rely on? Yes, that Gates, the one and only Sec of Def ever held over from a prior admin. Give the DoD the credit here, Obama owes Gates BIG TIME>
