They Say Loud Pipes Save Lives - Prove It!!
#101
02-19-2008, 07:02 PM
Road Master
RE: They Say Loud Pipes Save Lives - Prove It!!
ORIGINAL: Reverend
Wow!! My, my, you ARE a touchy lot tonight..
To answer loads of stuff, firstlyreducing Powered Two Wheeled casualties ismy job over here in the UK so I have a vested interest. Secondly, where is the proof? We can all toss about the bar room anecdotes till the cows come home, but it ain't proof.
Lets be honest (and polite, please - we all bike for a hobby) with noise. If it saves a crash by blipping the throttle, good on yer. But wouldn't you rather be braking before risking it? If you have to rely on a handful of revs, well...
Horns are only part of a toolkit of staying alive, not the only one.
How many of you hold advanced riding qualifications?
How many of you care?
I wasn't BS'g you. It simply doesn't hold up. Sound needs to travel forwards, the listener needs to identify, absorb & react. At 30mph you're travelling at 13 metres every second. Anything over that speed you won't be heard unless the listener has more than three seconds to do all this.
Now relax, boys & girls. It's only a bike forum
Wow!! My, my, you ARE a touchy lot tonight..
To answer loads of stuff, firstlyreducing Powered Two Wheeled casualties ismy job over here in the UK so I have a vested interest. Secondly, where is the proof? We can all toss about the bar room anecdotes till the cows come home, but it ain't proof.
Lets be honest (and polite, please - we all bike for a hobby) with noise. If it saves a crash by blipping the throttle, good on yer. But wouldn't you rather be braking before risking it? If you have to rely on a handful of revs, well...
Horns are only part of a toolkit of staying alive, not the only one.
How many of you hold advanced riding qualifications?
How many of you care?
I wasn't BS'g you. It simply doesn't hold up. Sound needs to travel forwards, the listener needs to identify, absorb & react. At 30mph you're travelling at 13 metres every second. Anything over that speed you won't be heard unless the listener has more than three seconds to do all this.
Now relax, boys & girls. It's only a bike forum
[ol][*]Your point about horns proves it for you/us- If you are prepared to conciet that horns get people's attention...it stands to reason that loud pipes get peoples attention before you can react to sound a horn...therby giving you precious more seconds to be recognized in your twisted math scenairio.[*]"Blipping" the throttle is dangerous- If your pipes are loud....you don't need to "blip the throttle" therby allowing the sound (which travels in all directions...sheesh where did you get the crap about it traveling forward anyway???) to spread to motorists all around you and give them precious time to identify you and make adjustments...all without even requiring a delyed response...or even removing your attentions from the road.[*]Ask Yourself for an Honest Question- "Has a loud noise ever caused you to turn your head & recognize someone/something you didn't realize before you heard it?" If you answer "no" you are either deaf...or incredibly dense. In either case you shouldn't be driving. If you need more "advanced" scientific proof...walk quietly into a room full of people pre-occupied doing other things...note how many of them don't recognize your present (this would be you simulating a motorcycle with quiet pipes)....now at the top of your lungs yell "BLAP! BLAP! BLAP! BLAP!" (this would be you simulating a harley withloud pipes).[/ol]
-clutch-
P.S. I do have an advanced degree in getting people's attention.
[IMG]local://upfiles/10668/32CD9F5B3C2A4B58B21DD75F78A7C457.jpg[/IMG]
#102
02-19-2008, 07:05 PM
Intermediate
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location:
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: They Say Loud Pipes Save Lives - Prove It!!
NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration)
78% of the riders involved in two-vehicle fatal accidents were struck from the front, and only 6% were struck from the rear. In other words, seeing what's out in front of you and being seen by the drivers out there are critical.
I don't know if loud pipes save lives but I think being seen is the most important if most accidents are caused by cagers pulling out in front of us and making left turns across our lanes.
I guess that's why a def person can get a driver's license but a blind person can't.
78% of the riders involved in two-vehicle fatal accidents were struck from the front, and only 6% were struck from the rear. In other words, seeing what's out in front of you and being seen by the drivers out there are critical.
I don't know if loud pipes save lives but I think being seen is the most important if most accidents are caused by cagers pulling out in front of us and making left turns across our lanes.
I guess that's why a def person can get a driver's license but a blind person can't.
#103
02-19-2008, 07:18 PM
RE: They Say Loud Pipes Save Lives - Prove It!!
ORIGINAL: jcd15
Last summer I pulled up to a stop light next to a women in an suv(on the phone).
I didn't rev the bike I just let it idle and the woman rolled down her window and said
I can barely hear my call.I shot her a devilish grin ,she then relizes what she said
and ended her phone call.
I suppose that could have saved someones life by getting her off the phone.
Last summer I pulled up to a stop light next to a women in an suv(on the phone).
I didn't rev the bike I just let it idle and the woman rolled down her window and said
I can barely hear my call.I shot her a devilish grin ,she then relizes what she said
and ended her phone call.
I suppose that could have saved someones life by getting her off the phone.
Well said JCD!!!
#104
02-19-2008, 07:56 PM
Road Warrior
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 1,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: They Say Loud Pipes Save Lives - Prove It!!
ORIGINAL: farns
I have been riding for a while and have seen it first hand where someone is about to pull out, cut someone off etc and you can see them look for the noise.
Now, this could be coincidence, etc and I make no bones about it.
Most people make the arguement that loud pipes save lives to justify making a racket. I am one of those people - I like my bike loud, BUT generally try to keep it respectable in residential areas.
I live near a highway bypass and hear loud piped Harleys drowned out by semi trucks, deisel half tons and "youngsters" with 20,000,000 watt bass blasting music(?). So, until the rest of the world complains about PLANES, TRAINS, BILLION WATT stereos, Semi Trucks and all other manner of noisy things, I will say "loud pipes save lives" too.
I have been riding for a while and have seen it first hand where someone is about to pull out, cut someone off etc and you can see them look for the noise.
Now, this could be coincidence, etc and I make no bones about it.
Most people make the arguement that loud pipes save lives to justify making a racket. I am one of those people - I like my bike loud, BUT generally try to keep it respectable in residential areas.
I live near a highway bypass and hear loud piped Harleys drowned out by semi trucks, deisel half tons and "youngsters" with 20,000,000 watt bass blasting music(?). So, until the rest of the world complains about PLANES, TRAINS, BILLION WATT stereos, Semi Trucks and all other manner of noisy things, I will say "loud pipes save lives" too.
#105
02-19-2008, 08:43 PM
RE: They Say Loud Pipes Save Lives - Prove It!!
Well Reverend, I don't think we are a tochy bunch at all. we just think and ride differently here in America. And, for the most part, we don't take to kindly to people trying to tell us what to do. The last time somebody from England tried to tell us what to do, I beleive it resulted in a small war (that we won).
No insult intended, but that's just the way it is. We like to be friendly here, except when we are pushed, then we have a habit of pushing back.
I hope your job goes well and you save a lot of U.K. bikers. As for me, I'll just keep riding and believing that my very loud pipes are saving my life every time that I ride.
If you listen very very carefully, you can hear me any afternoon. Oh, that's right, that would be the middle of the night for you. I'll try not to wake you up.
Ride safe.
C66
No insult intended, but that's just the way it is. We like to be friendly here, except when we are pushed, then we have a habit of pushing back.
I hope your job goes well and you save a lot of U.K. bikers. As for me, I'll just keep riding and believing that my very loud pipes are saving my life every time that I ride.
If you listen very very carefully, you can hear me any afternoon. Oh, that's right, that would be the middle of the night for you. I'll try not to wake you up.
Ride safe.
C66
#106
02-19-2008, 09:32 PM
Road Master
RE: They Say Loud Pipes Save Lives - Prove It!!
ORIGINAL: Reverend
1 - Good observation skills, well done
2 - Rubbish. Police give an incident number & have a vicarious liability which they devolve to local council or Highways. 60 mins max attendance round here. You're a witness, insist on Police action via incident number or be forever weak.
3 - Hundreds KSI? Bollox. Show me & I'll eat worms.
4 - Try google for court results.
as I said before - PROVE IT
I was driving to work this morning, pulled up at a set of lights (approaching the M4) and I noticed a bike that had crept up into my in my blind spot purely by the sound from his pipes. He was riding a sports bike which wasn't too noisy but load enough to hear. I'm not saying that it saved his life but I heard him before I saw him.
I was driving to work on the same stretch of road just before Christmas when a bike (sorry, powered two wheeler,we must be politically correct) in front of me slid out from underneath the rider. I stopped to help him pick it up. Luckily, he wasn't hurt. The road was covered in diesel which had caused the problem, you could smell it. I phoned the Police who weren't interested and they told me to phone the council who gave me the usual runaround by passing me from one office to another for over half an hour, hoping that I'd give up and go away. I finally managed to track down the guy responsible for cleaning the road and he said 'why should I care about diesel spills. If you want to be safe you should buy a car'. That's how much my local authority care about road safety.
I don't know if load pipes save lives but I do know that every year hundreds of motorcyclists are killed or injured through diesel spills and neither the Police or local authorities give a toss. I know several people who have been ticketed for load pipes but I've never heard of anybody being prosecuted for spreading diesel across a road.
I don't like loads pipes myself and I don't want any on my bike but that's my choice and I'd not criticise others for using them. I certainly wouldn't fit them as a safety measure. They may work but even if somebody can prove the fact I doubt if they'll ever be made compulsary.
I was driving to work on the same stretch of road just before Christmas when a bike (sorry, powered two wheeler,we must be politically correct) in front of me slid out from underneath the rider. I stopped to help him pick it up. Luckily, he wasn't hurt. The road was covered in diesel which had caused the problem, you could smell it. I phoned the Police who weren't interested and they told me to phone the council who gave me the usual runaround by passing me from one office to another for over half an hour, hoping that I'd give up and go away. I finally managed to track down the guy responsible for cleaning the road and he said 'why should I care about diesel spills. If you want to be safe you should buy a car'. That's how much my local authority care about road safety.
I don't know if load pipes save lives but I do know that every year hundreds of motorcyclists are killed or injured through diesel spills and neither the Police or local authorities give a toss. I know several people who have been ticketed for load pipes but I've never heard of anybody being prosecuted for spreading diesel across a road.
I don't like loads pipes myself and I don't want any on my bike but that's my choice and I'd not criticise others for using them. I certainly wouldn't fit them as a safety measure. They may work but even if somebody can prove the fact I doubt if they'll ever be made compulsary.
2 - Rubbish. Police give an incident number & have a vicarious liability which they devolve to local council or Highways. 60 mins max attendance round here. You're a witness, insist on Police action via incident number or be forever weak.
3 - Hundreds KSI? Bollox. Show me & I'll eat worms.
4 - Try google for court results.
as I said before - PROVE IT
It's not rubbish at all. When I phoned the Police I was told they could only do anything if somebody was actually injured otherwise it was not their responsibility. The officer I talked to refused to listen to a word I was saying and cut me short when I tried to explain where the incident happened. She told me to report it to the council then put the phone down.
3 - Hundreds KSI? Bollox. Show me & I'll eat worms.
Show me where I said KSI and I'll eat them myself. Please don't distort my words then accuse me of talking bollox. I said killed or injured not killed or seriously injured. I've heard speakers from the BMF at a killspills rally quoting "at least 600 accidents per year". I don't know how they get that number but I believe that it's probably about right and I'll explain why. The official figure for people Killed or Seriously Injured averages just over 135 KSI a year in the UK. Hundreds more suffer less serious injuries. Three years ago I injured my leg due to a diesel spill. A friend of mine suffered minor injured on the way to work last year yet these incidents don't figure in the official statistics. I'll stick with what I said.
#108
02-24-2008, 02:36 PM
RE: They Say Loud Pipes Save Lives - Prove It!!
Yeah Kev, Pockets is dead on here. Low frequency sounds are LESS directional. Fog horns should be high pitched to tell where ships are but the reason they are low pitched is because low pitched waves(less condensed as you said) will hold thier shape and travel around objectswhere high pitched tones will beakup. Hi tones are very easy to tell direction and lows are hard.T hat is 5th grade science dude Maybe you should have majored in law? 
Maybe you should have majored in law?
ORIGINAL: pockets2000
It really works bass ackwards to how you state it. This is why sound systems can and do use subwoofer bass modules. Bass eminates a room by reflecting off of walls and other hard objects in the room. This makes it seem as if the bass is coming from the tiny little speakers. The same holds true with motorcycle exhaust - it has to have something to bounce off of for it to become directional.
ORIGINAL: kev6212
Lower tones are more directional. Someone can determine the location of lower/deeper sound sources betterthan high frequency sources.Same reason ships use low tones for fog horns. Other ships can tell where they are better. On the other hand, it is also the reason police, fire and rescue sirens are high freq. More widespread attention from all sides. Ever noticed while sitting at a light and hearing a siren and you can't tell exactly where it comes from at first?
It has to do with the length of the sound wave. Low tones = long waves = low chance of the same sector of wave hitting both ear drums allowing someone to tell what ear heard the sound first thus determiining the direction of sound.
high tones = short wave lengths...both ears hear the sound almost equally...thus it is harder to determine the direction of the sound....you get the picture? This is what I got from being a science major.
Lower tones are more directional. Someone can determine the location of lower/deeper sound sources betterthan high frequency sources.Same reason ships use low tones for fog horns. Other ships can tell where they are better. On the other hand, it is also the reason police, fire and rescue sirens are high freq. More widespread attention from all sides. Ever noticed while sitting at a light and hearing a siren and you can't tell exactly where it comes from at first?
It has to do with the length of the sound wave. Low tones = long waves = low chance of the same sector of wave hitting both ear drums allowing someone to tell what ear heard the sound first thus determiining the direction of sound.
high tones = short wave lengths...both ears hear the sound almost equally...thus it is harder to determine the direction of the sound....you get the picture? This is what I got from being a science major.
#109
02-24-2008, 03:45 PM
Road Captain
RE: They Say Loud Pipes Save Lives - Prove It!!
The problem with statistics is that they describe group behavior and we're individuals. Just because there's not good statistical numbers saying noise can save you doesn't mean it won't. I'm not a loud pipe guy, so please save the flames, but I do know that I have used sound many times to make idiots around me more aware of my presence when they were blackberrying or putting on makeup in traffic. I understand the thing about non-directional low frequency, but anything that makes a cager pop his head up and ask "where did that comes from?" can't be a bad thing for me.
Here's what happened to me yesterday:
I was in my car with my son in relatively heavy traffic. 3 lanes each way at 35mph. I put on my blinker to signal a lane change to get someone to "make a hole." The car next to me obliged. Just one last dbl check for safety before the turn and all of the sudden there's a kid on a c-rocket right next to me. I couldn't hear him at all, and could barely see him because it was a small bike. It was also one of those new jobs where you can't see any lights at all unless you're right in front of it. I didn't have the radio on, and no one was talking or using the damned phone.
Now it's really his behavior that put him at risk. He was lane dancing in and out, and that put him in places where there was a hole only seconds before. He also didn't seem to pay any attention to me at all, even though I was signalling a lane change. I might not WANT togive every car who signalsthe right-of-way, but they can kill me and I can't kill them so there it is. He had his head up hisass and it could have hurt him. I'm pretty sure thathe would have bit it if he'd come up against a driverless bike-aware than me.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm really alert to bikes, and I drive very defensively. Even then, I coulda splattered a bike for not hearing it.
Here's what happened to me yesterday:
I was in my car with my son in relatively heavy traffic. 3 lanes each way at 35mph. I put on my blinker to signal a lane change to get someone to "make a hole." The car next to me obliged. Just one last dbl check for safety before the turn and all of the sudden there's a kid on a c-rocket right next to me. I couldn't hear him at all, and could barely see him because it was a small bike. It was also one of those new jobs where you can't see any lights at all unless you're right in front of it. I didn't have the radio on, and no one was talking or using the damned phone.
Now it's really his behavior that put him at risk. He was lane dancing in and out, and that put him in places where there was a hole only seconds before. He also didn't seem to pay any attention to me at all, even though I was signalling a lane change. I might not WANT togive every car who signalsthe right-of-way, but they can kill me and I can't kill them so there it is. He had his head up hisass and it could have hurt him. I'm pretty sure thathe would have bit it if he'd come up against a driverless bike-aware than me.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm really alert to bikes, and I drive very defensively. Even then, I coulda splattered a bike for not hearing it.
#110
02-24-2008, 07:37 PM
RE: They Say Loud Pipes Save Lives - Prove It!!
You know when they hit you, they always say...I didnt SEE HIM......they dont say I didnt hear him.....no matter what kind of pipes you got...loud or quiet....