DYNOJET: Power Vision Target Tune
#61
12-20-2016, 09:33 AM
OK.
So - for the purposes of discussion/education - say I bring you 3 practically identical Sportsters. Say they are stock 2009, 2010, and 2011 1200's. If you tune each 3, what would turn out significantly different in each of their tunes? How much impact would these "significant" differences have on performance (particularly perceived) and drivability?
Now say, we take those 3 stock Sporty's and change some pipes and intakes. None of the 3 Sporty's have the same combination. You re-tune each. What changes significantly (besides the obvious) between the 3 tunes?
So - for the purposes of discussion/education - say I bring you 3 practically identical Sportsters. Say they are stock 2009, 2010, and 2011 1200's. If you tune each 3, what would turn out significantly different in each of their tunes? How much impact would these "significant" differences have on performance (particularly perceived) and drivability?
Now say, we take those 3 stock Sporty's and change some pipes and intakes. None of the 3 Sporty's have the same combination. You re-tune each. What changes significantly (besides the obvious) between the 3 tunes?
Bring me the bikes, parts and money. We can perform the test as you watch and we can both look at results.
#62
12-20-2016, 11:02 AM
Stellar HDF Member
#63
12-20-2016, 11:55 AM
Stellar HDF Member
T^2,
"That's an answer...?"
How bout this...?
Since no 2 production injectors put out the same amount of fuel, no 2 cylinder heads flow the same air throught the rpm/load range, and no 2 cams have the same timing, there are so many production variables the only thing the MOCO can do is develop calibrations for the worse-case injector (richer production) scenario and be sure each bike is lean enough to pass even is it has (leaner production) injectors to begin with.
This is the reason no 2 bikes will run exactly the same even with the exact same p/n parts.
Too many times I hear how well an owner thinks his/her bike runs. What are they comparing to?Have they ridden a well-tuned bike with the same build and exhaust system?
Or are they comparing it to how they think it should run?
I have only run across a couple stage1 bikes that the calibration was very close, not totally correct, but close enough that the rider probably would not notice.
Every bike I've tuned benefited from recalibration of the fueling, timing, cold start, hot start, accel enrichment, decel backfiring, etc. etc..period
The one thing to keep in mind when telling someone your bike runs perfect...until you ride a similar bike that has been properly recalibrated for best performance, smoothness, response, and mileage, it's just an opinion without comparison.
Just the way it is and there are no smoke and mirrors, OR marketing/advertizing that will ever change that.
What you ride is the best you know, right?
Bob
"That's an answer...?"
How bout this...?
Since no 2 production injectors put out the same amount of fuel, no 2 cylinder heads flow the same air throught the rpm/load range, and no 2 cams have the same timing, there are so many production variables the only thing the MOCO can do is develop calibrations for the worse-case injector (richer production) scenario and be sure each bike is lean enough to pass even is it has (leaner production) injectors to begin with.
This is the reason no 2 bikes will run exactly the same even with the exact same p/n parts.
Too many times I hear how well an owner thinks his/her bike runs. What are they comparing to?Have they ridden a well-tuned bike with the same build and exhaust system?
Or are they comparing it to how they think it should run?
I have only run across a couple stage1 bikes that the calibration was very close, not totally correct, but close enough that the rider probably would not notice.
Every bike I've tuned benefited from recalibration of the fueling, timing, cold start, hot start, accel enrichment, decel backfiring, etc. etc..period
The one thing to keep in mind when telling someone your bike runs perfect...until you ride a similar bike that has been properly recalibrated for best performance, smoothness, response, and mileage, it's just an opinion without comparison.
Just the way it is and there are no smoke and mirrors, OR marketing/advertizing that will ever change that.
What you ride is the best you know, right?
Bob
Last edited by FLTRI17; 12-20-2016 at 11:57 AM.
The following users liked this post:
Gordon61 (12-21-2016)
#64
12-20-2016, 12:34 PM
Stellar HDF Member
T^2,
"That's an answer...?"
How bout this...?
Since no 2 production injectors put out the same amount of fuel, no 2 cylinder heads flow the same air throught the rpm/load range, and no 2 cams have the same timing, there are so many production variables the only thing the MOCO can do is develop calibrations for the worse-case injector (richer production) scenario and be sure each bike is lean enough to pass even is it has (leaner production) injectors to begin with.
This is the reason no 2 bikes will run exactly the same even with the exact same p/n parts.
Too many times I hear how well an owner thinks his/her bike runs. What are they comparing to?Have they ridden a well-tuned bike with the same build and exhaust system?
Or are they comparing it to how they think it should run?
I have only run across a couple stage1 bikes that the calibration was very close, not totally correct, but close enough that the rider probably would not notice.
Every bike I've tuned benefited from recalibration of the fueling, timing, cold start, hot start, accel enrichment, decel backfiring, etc. etc..period
The one thing to keep in mind when telling someone your bike runs perfect...until you ride a similar bike that has been properly recalibrated for best performance, smoothness, response, and mileage, it's just an opinion without comparison.
Just the way it is and there are no smoke and mirrors, OR marketing/advertizing that will ever change that.
What you ride is the best you know, right?
Bob
"That's an answer...?"
How bout this...?
Since no 2 production injectors put out the same amount of fuel, no 2 cylinder heads flow the same air throught the rpm/load range, and no 2 cams have the same timing, there are so many production variables the only thing the MOCO can do is develop calibrations for the worse-case injector (richer production) scenario and be sure each bike is lean enough to pass even is it has (leaner production) injectors to begin with.
This is the reason no 2 bikes will run exactly the same even with the exact same p/n parts.
Too many times I hear how well an owner thinks his/her bike runs. What are they comparing to?Have they ridden a well-tuned bike with the same build and exhaust system?
Or are they comparing it to how they think it should run?
I have only run across a couple stage1 bikes that the calibration was very close, not totally correct, but close enough that the rider probably would not notice.
Every bike I've tuned benefited from recalibration of the fueling, timing, cold start, hot start, accel enrichment, decel backfiring, etc. etc..period
The one thing to keep in mind when telling someone your bike runs perfect...until you ride a similar bike that has been properly recalibrated for best performance, smoothness, response, and mileage, it's just an opinion without comparison.
Just the way it is and there are no smoke and mirrors, OR marketing/advertizing that will ever change that.
What you ride is the best you know, right?
Bob
My questions were - What would be the differences (in the tunes) and how significant would they be? You suggest it's enough that the rider can tell a difference. What's that really mean? Seems subjective.
Last edited by T^2; 12-20-2016 at 06:45 PM.
#65
12-21-2016, 05:10 PM
Stellar HDF Member
All that to say that no two units are "exactly" the same? That's a given.
My questions were - What would be the differences (in the tunes) and how significant would they be? You suggest it's enough that the rider can tell a difference. What's that really mean? Seems subjective.
My questions were - What would be the differences (in the tunes) and how significant would they be? You suggest it's enough that the rider can tell a difference. What's that really mean? Seems subjective.
Afterward you have a direct comparison between before and after on the ride back.
Note: This assumes your bike is decently running so you can ride it to the tuner without burning it down...if so trailer it.
Bob
#66
12-21-2016, 05:49 PM
Stellar HDF Member
The absolute best ways to answer your questions are to either find folks who have had their bikes custom tuned and ask them OR research a tuner with a good reputation tuner within 500 miles and make a road trip out of it if necessary.
Afterward you have a direct comparison between before and after on the ride back.
Note: This assumes your bike is decently running so you can ride it to the tuner without burning it down...if so trailer it.
Bob
Afterward you have a direct comparison between before and after on the ride back.
Note: This assumes your bike is decently running so you can ride it to the tuner without burning it down...if so trailer it.
Bob
So I posed a question about recent vintage Sporty 1200's. I suspect they've tuned many such beast. Drawing from their vast experience, what can they tell me that would be significantly different in the tunes of essentially identical motors? Considering manufacturing tolerances seen today vs 40 to 50 years ago, I would really like to know.
Last edited by T^2; 12-21-2016 at 06:28 PM.
#67
12-22-2016, 10:28 AM
Stellar HDF Member
"Significant" differences, that's a bit subjective.
What I can tell you is there enough difference between tuned and untuned 1200 Sportsters that 99% of the owner/riders out there can definitely feel the differrenc between the two.
Objectively speaking, some of the reason for noticing the differences:
Recalibrating VEs
Maximizing timing
Maximizing warm up enrichment
Maximizing accel enrichment
Maximizing decel enleanment
Minimize/eliminate decel backfiring
Adjusting hot restarts
All the above done to each bike due to the fact no two bikes run the same.
The above is what makes a well-tuned bike run noticeably different to one with a canned map or someone else's map posted on the Internet for anyone to use.
If the rider knows no better he/she will assume that is the way the bike is supposed to run.
Bob
What I can tell you is there enough difference between tuned and untuned 1200 Sportsters that 99% of the owner/riders out there can definitely feel the differrenc between the two.
Objectively speaking, some of the reason for noticing the differences:
Recalibrating VEs
Maximizing timing
Maximizing warm up enrichment
Maximizing accel enrichment
Maximizing decel enleanment
Minimize/eliminate decel backfiring
Adjusting hot restarts
All the above done to each bike due to the fact no two bikes run the same.
The above is what makes a well-tuned bike run noticeably different to one with a canned map or someone else's map posted on the Internet for anyone to use.
If the rider knows no better he/she will assume that is the way the bike is supposed to run.
Bob
#69
12-22-2016, 02:10 PM
Maps I post or any other tuner out there would be great starters maps, and that's all they are. A starting point. Not to be confused with. "They are no good for any other bike"
Please point out where I advertised. You can't. I think the mods do a great job of keeping that crap out of here. If you don't. Take it up with them, because coming on a tech thread and whining about it. Just seems silly.
The following users liked this post:
Mr. Wizard (12-22-2016)