As a side note. I'm a EE. So rest assured, when terms like open/closed loop, PID's, PLL's, process control etc. etc. etc. get tossed around, I'm familiar with/cognizant of those terms and their meanings.

 

Yes but that part of the manual is talking about running autotune basic - you set the whole table to 14.6 so that the ECU can see feedback data from the O2 sensor to calculate and map the VE tables.

Once you have done your tuning, you set your AFR table to whatever you want. That is a completely different step in the tuning process. Nobody leaves a full AFR table set to 14.6 once they are finished tuning.

 

Now I'm going to eat humble pie here because I keep forgetting that there are older and different bikes to mine (blush, sorry, and you pro's can stop laughing now )

Older bikes, older ECU strategies and maybe the old 18mm narrowband (not sure about that) worked differently, and I freely admit I never got my head fully around the Closed-loop setting and the CLB offset voltage that moved the closed-loop value or whatever.

I, as an example, have a newer bike, newer strategy, and modern narrow-band O2s and the ECU



That is a picture of the newer Sporty 374 config. (I presume you have an older 176 Sporty that did, as you say, use a set value with a CLB offset ...my humble apologies for missing that)



The newer strategies allow for a more granular narrow-band closed-loop as shown here, for the stock 2014 AFR table (bold = closed-loop as always)


The lesson for both of us, lol, is to remember making bold statements when there are other bikes out there as well.

 

I was aware that HD made a shift to 12mm narrow bands in 2014. But HD also changing narrow band strategies, well that would be news to me. So that's a new Sporty stock map eh? Interesting.

With that being said.... Couple of points...

So if they did expanded the range around 14.6 that the ECM can run closed loop, then that range would still presumably have to be limited (they are still "narrow" bands). So say an individual was comfortable running with that stock AFR table that you showed. Then there would almost be no point in a PV, dialing in VE tables or the like. For 95% of the operational band one would normally encounter on the road, the target AFR would be met due to the closed loop feedback from the narrow bands.

However, I still think that (new) stock AFR map is poor (too lean). The narrow bands still become a problem if you really want to improve it. Even on Andy's AFR table, trying to use the narrow bands would not be prudent. For large portions of his map, they would either be at their limits or not used at all (ECM dropping out of closed loop to open loop). On the map I got from Fuel Moto, the narrow bands wouldn't be used at all - assuming that the range you mentioned (14.2 to 15.0) for the new range of closed loop operation is in play. The highest AFR setting in the Fuel Moto map is 14.0.

In both cases (either Andy's map or Fuel Moto's), or other similar cases, the PV and TT have value. Like I mentioned before, if you want to run a better AFR map, then you would likely either chose to eliminate the O2 sensors all together and run full time open loop (might as well, the O2 sensors aren't going to be used - for the most part - by the ECM), or go with something like TT that allows you run with widebands/full time closed loop and AFR's outside the limited range of the narrow bands. If one chooses open loop, then dialing in the VE tables is critical. If one chooses closed loop (with TT), then dialing in the VE's is still advisable for various reasons.

 

Well apparently some do just remove the a/c, cat or change the exhaust, and leave the closed loop integrator and adaptive values to "adjust" in the background. Depends if such changes end up pushing the AFR outside of the closed-loop range.

A proper tune is ALWAYS going to map the VE tables to model the airflow correctly, so that the CLI and AFF can work from the middle of their range and do what they are supposed to. Regardless of open or closed loop. Slight caveat is this stuff about how well the AFF tables are implemented/managed

You're right there, I'm not sure many people use the stock AFR table, but of all the maps for the different tuners I've looked at ...I've never seen one like that one you got from Andy so you would have to ask him what he was trying to achieve.

Mine, as an example, looks like this (although you've probably looked at plenty already)





The point is that you set your AFR table to whatever you want, AFTER you have mapped your VE. VE tables and the AFR table are not necessarily linked unless you are purposely building an open-loop map for whatever reason

I've no idea what you asked of FM, so you'd have to ask them about that

Depends what you mean by better. Even the stock AFR riches up to 12 point something in the high load area. People say that 14.6 makes the engine too hot ...does it? Maybe you are more likely to break it by chucking unnecessary fuel down its intake? I don't know. I do know that even if I set my idle AFR to 13.5 and sit it traffic the engine temp will get too high ...I tried that

There is plenty of debate on that and the other points within the forum, so I'll leave it there for the reader to go off and read a few more threads to come to their own conclusion.

 

When you say:

No argument with your fist sentence. Didn't suggest otherwise.

The second sentence raises an eyebrow though... VE represents the "A" in AFR. So in that sense, they are indeed linked. How critical that linkage is, is dependent on how you want to run - open or closed loop (or part open and part closed loop). There is no error correction with open loop so the correctness of the VE numbers is critical. Closed loop on the other hand is all about error correction, so you can get away with some error in those VE tables. If that was your meaning, then I'm with you there.

By the appearances of your map, you would predominately be running in closed loop and occasionally - depending on the proximity of Johnny Law - be dropping out into open loop. So, basically that map runs part time closed and part time open. That's all fine. However, I look upon your map with a touch of jaundice eye. Particular those 14.4 AFR numbers in the 0% TPS column.

Actually, I didn't ask FM to do anything. When I bought the TT from them, they needed to know what my setup/bike was. They then supplied the TT specific tune that they say is appropriate for my particular bike. The highest AFR setting in that tune is 14.0. I would post a picture of it, but I don't have it readily available at the moment. My first reaction when I saw it was - Wow!? So I called Jamie at FM and asked a few questions about it. I was told that it's what they believe is the best settings for this bike in terms of performance etc. I was also told that those conclusions were based on their experience and various testing/development efforts including the use of dynos. It hasn't been all that long ago that I upgraded to TT. I've ran FM's map since then. Performance has been very good. Eventually, I'll get around to pulling the plugs and see if they tell me that I should have concerns.

In any case, the FM tune would not run anywhere in closed loop if I didn't have TT (and of course it runs in CL everywhere because I do).

And drops out of closed loop when it does so. Unless of course you are running with widebands.

That's a good question... So far I don't know how much cooling I'm experiencing with richer mixtures either. In the heat of the summer this year (95+ degree weather and crappy humidity), I don't think I saw any difference in engine temp with the richer mixture. So I have to wonder. Last ride I was on, and thought about it, it was 45 degrees. Difference in engine temperature on that ride vs. the highs I saw last summer was over 70 degrees cooler. But then again, it was 45 degrees out.

 

OK I think we are either scaring the natives, or giving them a good laugh, not sure which.

All of these basics are well covered in other threads.

Of course every table in the configuration file is relevant to how much fuel the ECU calculates to squirt in and when. The AFR table is the one that models what ratio fuel to air you want, when.

The VE tables are a model of how the engine breathes (Air), regardless of what ratio you may want ...once VE is modelled, the AFR table handles the ratios for you. AFR does not map or affect the VE tables (other than setting the AFR table so that you can do "autotuning" so please don't take that comment out of context)

Like I said, I run more than 95% of the time in closed loop, not too far from stoic because I don't think you need any more fuel during cruise and tootling around. If I wind the throttle tho, I'm picking up a bit sharper than the stock map and it shifts very nicely indeed thank you very much. That was what I wanted.

I have no idea what you mean by "jaundiced", I presume you mean sceptical. Have a read of RB Racings thoughts on AFR ratio, or a look at some of the TTS maps.

I still don't know what you mean by "run a better? AFR map" ...mine does exactly what I want it to ...but I'll leave that to the great pile of what AFR table is best threads that already exist.

Lets just leave it there. There is plenty of reading on all of these finer points as well a a good set of how to tune manuals and the various steps, including Andy's one. Maybe Sportys are a bit of a black art, or the older ones anyway, no idea, I don't have one, maybe they just don't work very well around stoic, no idea.

The main thing about TT, getting back to the real point and putting tuning aside as a separate exercise, is it allows you to run whatever AFR table you may desire in wide-band closed-loop. That is perfect for those that need/want that.

I'm great running a partially open-loop configuration where the VE in the richer parts of my map were tuned using narrow-band

cheers

 

In a lot of respects we are saying the same thing...

Good conversation though...

cheers...

 

Wow! What a thread!
A couple points:
Autotune is a misnomer simply because there must be user inputs to "get it right", whether wideband, broadband, or narrow band sensors are used.

While I understand Sportys are a bit different and picky, they are just an engine that has the same reversion issues caused by exhaust systems. Other than that they tune very nice. O2 placement is imparative for good data in order for the system to work as expected.

Putting AFR @ 14.6 for earlier systems tell the ECM to use closed loop operation.
This, when set to use closed loop for everything, is handy for correcting VE.
Once VEs have been corrected the user can use whatever "target" AFR desired and the system will accurately calculate resultant AFR for outside closed loop areas.
Lambda-based cals allow user to set fueling to end result rather than 14.6 + bias offsets as used on TP-based cals.

All that said, don't forget timing tables are as important as fueling tables and they are based on MAP not TP.

This is another advantage to MAP-based cals over TP-based cals. Everything is MAP-based...fueling and timing making for better results.

Hoping this won't confuse the issue more than it is now,
Bob

 

Yes... What he said ^

Errr.... wait... didn't I already say that?