anyone had a BAD experience with high octane fuel???
#31
06-21-2014, 03:09 PM
Banned
While the system will adjust the closed-loop long-term fuel trim (like any other EFI system with a lambda loop), that only effects the the closed-loop operation. In situations where you're operating outside of closed-loop (e.g. warm-up, high load, large throttle openings, quick throttle openings that require the "accelerator pump" functionality, etc.) the system reverts to using standard maps that do not adjust.
Because the Delphi system is a MAP system and not a MAF system, it cannot directly measure the amount of airflow. Rather, it calculates the amount of airflow based on the manifold pressure and known values for restrictions. Any changes to the amount of restriction relative to the stock setup will cause the open-loop maps to drift away from accuracy.
Yes, the system can adjust just fine when it's in steady-state closed-loop operation, but open-loop operation will absolutely be slightly lean with a less restrictive air cleaner and exhaust unless the maps are altered.
Now, if the system were a MAF-based system, then yes, even the open-loop operation would self-adjust. But it's not MAF-based and MAP-based systems don't work like that.
The IED line only affects closed-loop operation. It doesn't help the open-loop issue described above.
Because the Delphi system is a MAP system and not a MAF system, it cannot directly measure the amount of airflow. Rather, it calculates the amount of airflow based on the manifold pressure and known values for restrictions. Any changes to the amount of restriction relative to the stock setup will cause the open-loop maps to drift away from accuracy.
Yes, the system can adjust just fine when it's in steady-state closed-loop operation, but open-loop operation will absolutely be slightly lean with a less restrictive air cleaner and exhaust unless the maps are altered.
Now, if the system were a MAF-based system, then yes, even the open-loop operation would self-adjust. But it's not MAF-based and MAP-based systems don't work like that.
The IED line only affects closed-loop operation. It doesn't help the open-loop issue described above.
http://sales.nightrider.com/o2ied.html
Read the item description.
Our simple plug-n-play fuel management upgrade that fits most 2007 and later Harley-Davidson motorcycles. Except for the 2009>later HD Touring Bikes, the O2 IED is still a good choice for rider wanting a slightly richer fuel mixture. Nightrider's unique patented design works*inline with*your existing H-D Bosch narrow band*O2 sensor and Delphi ECM*to richen the*fuel mixtures. Riders can quickly and simply richen the closed loop fuel mixture on your TC96/103/110 engine from the stock 14.6:1 to 14.2:1 AFR. The O2 IED's will add approximately 4% more fuel to the engine in closed loop operating mode*than*a similar*unequipped vehicle.*There is an indirect*richening of*open loop fuel mixture's through the learning mode or adaptive fuel value action, ensuring these richer 13.8-12.5:1 AFR's are also adjusted in heavy/full throttle situations.
There is an indirect*richening of*open loop fuel mixture's through the learning mode or adaptive fuel value action
Last edited by Dusty Bones; 06-21-2014 at 03:16 PM.
#32
06-21-2014, 04:22 PM
Ultimate HDF Member
#34
06-21-2014, 08:39 PM
Road Captain
The IED, like all O2 sensor intercept devices, simply alters the electrical signal from the O2 sensor. When the ECU is ignoring the O2 sensor input (which the ECU does in open-loop mode), the IED has exactly zero effect on anything.
The stock tune is not a simple one. It learns, and does it well. Nevermind the MAP based system over MAF, it does look at what the O2 sensors are saying. When it reads too lean it adds fuel. When you open up the air in and air out and it leans it out, the ECM adds it right back thanks to the O2 sensors.
Closed-loop operation monitors the O2 sensor data and adjusts fueling to compensate.
Open-loop operation ignores the O2 sensor data and simply fuels based on the ECU's internal maps.
When you open the throttle abruptly, there ECU must adjust the fuel rate before it gets feedback from the O2 sensor, otherwise you get a transient lean condition until the O2 sensor data "catches up" and the ECU is told to enrich the mixture. So the ECU relies on a fixed map to know how much extra fuel to inject when you quickly open the throttle.
Similarly, at and near wide-open-throttle the engine needs to run much richer than stoichiometric; typically between 12.5:1 and 13:1. Since this is outside the range for normal narrow-band sensors, the ECU goes into open-loop mode and again ignores the O2 sensor readings and instead relies on internal maps.
The closed-loop mode where the ECU adjusts fueling based on O2 sensor input is only used in light- to moderate-load cruise and warm idle.
The Harley system does not intelligently update its own maps, so while it does compensate in closed-loop mode, the open-loop mode I've described above does not adjust at all. This means that with better flow you will be leaning out at WOT and you will have transient lean conditions on throttle tip-in.
While there will be some change to the long-term fuel trim values, these are very small because the long-term fuel trim is not designed to allow significant adjustment. It's basically a way for the engine to compensate for aging injectors and other production variances. The long-term fuel trim is a very crude adjustment that simply enriches or leans out all maps in all situations. That is not a proper adjustment.
Those are simple facts. They're fundamental to the operating principles of every MAP-based EFI system ever build.
#35
06-21-2014, 09:13 PM
Banned
The ECU does not monitor the O2 sensor when it is in open-loop operation. It is literally IMPOSSIBLE for the IED to affect open-loop fueling because the ECU is not looking at O2 sensor data when in that mode.
The IED, like all O2 sensor intercept devices, simply alters the electrical signal from the O2 sensor. When the ECU is ignoring the O2 sensor input (which the ECU does in open-loop mode), the IED has exactly zero effect on anything.
Only in closed-loop mode. You don't seem to understand that ALL systems operate in two modes, open-loop and closed-loop.
Closed-loop operation monitors the O2 sensor data and adjusts fueling to compensate.
Open-loop operation ignores the O2 sensor data and simply fuels based on the ECU's internal maps.
When you open the throttle abruptly, there ECU must adjust the fuel rate before it gets feedback from the O2 sensor, otherwise you get a transient lean condition until the O2 sensor data "catches up" and the ECU is told to enrich the mixture. So the ECU relies on a fixed map to know how much extra fuel to inject when you quickly open the throttle.
Similarly, at and near wide-open-throttle the engine needs to run much richer than stoichiometric; typically between 12.5:1 and 13:1. Since this is outside the range for normal narrow-band sensors, the ECU goes into open-loop mode and again ignores the O2 sensor readings and instead relies on internal maps.
The closed-loop mode where the ECU adjusts fueling based on O2 sensor input is only used in light- to moderate-load cruise and warm idle.
The Harley system does not intelligently update its own maps, so while it does compensate in closed-loop mode, the open-loop mode I've described above does not adjust at all. This means that with better flow you will be leaning out at WOT and you will have transient lean conditions on throttle tip-in.
While there will be some change to the long-term fuel trim values, these are very small because the long-term fuel trim is not designed to allow significant adjustment. It's basically a way for the engine to compensate for aging injectors and other production variances. The long-term fuel trim is a very crude adjustment that simply enriches or leans out all maps in all situations. That is not a proper adjustment.
Those are simple facts. They're fundamental to the operating principles of every MAP-based EFI system ever build.
The IED, like all O2 sensor intercept devices, simply alters the electrical signal from the O2 sensor. When the ECU is ignoring the O2 sensor input (which the ECU does in open-loop mode), the IED has exactly zero effect on anything.
Only in closed-loop mode. You don't seem to understand that ALL systems operate in two modes, open-loop and closed-loop.
Closed-loop operation monitors the O2 sensor data and adjusts fueling to compensate.
Open-loop operation ignores the O2 sensor data and simply fuels based on the ECU's internal maps.
When you open the throttle abruptly, there ECU must adjust the fuel rate before it gets feedback from the O2 sensor, otherwise you get a transient lean condition until the O2 sensor data "catches up" and the ECU is told to enrich the mixture. So the ECU relies on a fixed map to know how much extra fuel to inject when you quickly open the throttle.
Similarly, at and near wide-open-throttle the engine needs to run much richer than stoichiometric; typically between 12.5:1 and 13:1. Since this is outside the range for normal narrow-band sensors, the ECU goes into open-loop mode and again ignores the O2 sensor readings and instead relies on internal maps.
The closed-loop mode where the ECU adjusts fueling based on O2 sensor input is only used in light- to moderate-load cruise and warm idle.
The Harley system does not intelligently update its own maps, so while it does compensate in closed-loop mode, the open-loop mode I've described above does not adjust at all. This means that with better flow you will be leaning out at WOT and you will have transient lean conditions on throttle tip-in.
While there will be some change to the long-term fuel trim values, these are very small because the long-term fuel trim is not designed to allow significant adjustment. It's basically a way for the engine to compensate for aging injectors and other production variances. The long-term fuel trim is a very crude adjustment that simply enriches or leans out all maps in all situations. That is not a proper adjustment.
Those are simple facts. They're fundamental to the operating principles of every MAP-based EFI system ever build.
Remember, I am just a messenger. I am showing you what happens.
You just used a bunch of words in your flip flop to say.
There is an indirect*richening of*open loop fuel mixture's through the learning mode or adaptive fuel value action
You can go back to the link for the people selling them. I am sure they have a contact us option on their site somewhere. They probably have long technical responses they just copy and paste to people like you needing to learn.
#36
06-22-2014, 06:19 AM
Road Captain
Full stock bikes will have a slightly richer AFR with the IEDs. After a bike adjusts to open pipes and air cleaner back to stock settings, the IED will bring the afr slightly up to the same it is on the stock bike.
You guys sound like the advertisments for tuners and thats what they want. Stop puking their marketing onto your keyboards and hitting send. They are trying to sell you a product and they have no obligation to tell you the truth to do it.
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You guys sound like the advertisments for tuners and thats what they want. Stop puking their marketing onto your keyboards and hitting send. They are trying to sell you a product and they have no obligation to tell you the truth to do it.
.
#38
06-22-2014, 06:52 AM
#39
06-22-2014, 09:46 AM
Banned
Lol who sounds like an advertisement? Pretty sure you're the one who posted the sales description link to Nightrider to kick off this thread hijack, while continuing to refer to it. If anyone is puking marketing in this thread it's the guy posting SALES description link and using it as gospel for his information.
I am not the one saying it anyway. Too many people read too little and just repeat the little they know. So they are right, they have 25,000+ posts so they know everything. Cool beans. You can believe what you want. I know better, Im not here to pull on the skirt of the cool cats and follow them around and go ueah yeah, what the kool kid said.
If there is a problem with the information I posted compared to the mythical information spread here like the ebola virus, take it up with the people who did the research and published it online. I aint got time to teach you and silly guys like rog who will just do his I have a fatter beer belly than you so I know most one liners, see.
Get over here and let me give you a noogie you silly *****. You know you like me.