Pipes and Air, now what tuner?
#51
04-07-2014, 10:16 AM
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Good explanation. I believe what you're saying is true about HOW the ECM works, but I need more evidence to believe the degree to which it can adapt. Knight Rider advocates and sells a wideband o2 sensor system. Most of the people on these forums who recommend various tuners have never had a wideband anywhere near their bike. Coming from an EFI motorsports background I don't really believe impressions, gut feelings, etc. I believe data acquired from instruments.
There are two distinct camps that most HD owners fall into-
1. Not needing/wanting top performance, but they do want to get rid of the stutter/hesitation in low RPM acceleration that is common because of the closed loop epa mandated lean tune. They also want to make sure the engine is not getting so hot that it is causing premature wear. Since open loop is already so rich, the concern is closed loop (for getting rid of the stutter and "excessive" heat).
We rent a dyno a few times a year and do runs on different bikes with different products. We never bothered to print out an open loop with a sniffer with an XiED product....just the closed loop to show how it works. But I am going to dig back thru a bunch of runs and see if I can find one. If not, I will do some of those pulls again and publish them.
2. Wanting top performance. For those, a full tuner is the way to go, there is no doubt. But then it becomes a question of which full tuner?
We are a Dynojet dealer, but we have been recommending for years that the best option on a full tuner is a Power Vision from Fuel Moto. (even though we could sell the Power Visions ourselves, the Double Warranty & technical support from Fuel Moto is unsurpassed). This is our opinion, based on our experience. HOWEVER, with many other tuners a great tune can be accomplished also.
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Last edited by DK Custom; 04-07-2014 at 10:18 AM.
#52
04-07-2014, 11:51 AM
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#53
04-07-2014, 01:01 PM
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XiED MPG question
The reality is that in open loop, the EPA does not mandate that the bike run lean. Closed loop is where the bike is too lean and where the XiED products primarily work, to get the AFR richened up a bit.
The XiED products work WITH the HD ECM, keeping the same tune, but in Closed Loop they add about 6% more fuel to get the bike out of the lean area, into a close to ideal area, where the bike will run better (cooler and stronger).
When you twist the wick and go into Open Loop, the HD tune is already very good (the epa has not required it to be too lean there...so the Motor Company has a good tune there already).
When you add free flowing pipes and air cleaner, it will get leaner in open loop too, but not nearly as bad as it does in closed loop. The XiED products fix that in closed loop.
What most people do not know is that the HD ECM has what is called Adaptive Learning, which utilizes Long Term Fuel Trim (LTFT). When the XiED product is paired with the ECM in closed loop it makes adjustments to increase the fuel in Closed Loop. At the same time it is also learning and adjusting the LTFT to make it also run richer in Open Loop.
So with using an XiED product, it is enriching the AFR in Closed AND Open Loop. It is not noticed as much in Open Loop because it is not dangerously lean in Open Loop like it is in Closed Loop.
There are some people that are very vocally opposed to the XiED...some of them understand how it works (and just don't like leaving power on the table), most do not.
The XiED products are NOT the best way to get an ideal tune with a Stock or Stage 1 bike, but they are 90% as good as a full tuner at 10-20% of the cost.
For many, who don't need every bit of available power, or are tight on $, they are the ideal solution to the EPA mandated too lean factory tune.
For others, the extra $ and effort of a flash tuner is worth it to get the very most power out of their bikes.
There is actually quite a bit more information on this subject, but I tried to keep this explanation short, just hitting the highlights.
The XiED products work WITH the HD ECM, keeping the same tune, but in Closed Loop they add about 6% more fuel to get the bike out of the lean area, into a close to ideal area, where the bike will run better (cooler and stronger).
When you twist the wick and go into Open Loop, the HD tune is already very good (the epa has not required it to be too lean there...so the Motor Company has a good tune there already).
When you add free flowing pipes and air cleaner, it will get leaner in open loop too, but not nearly as bad as it does in closed loop. The XiED products fix that in closed loop.
What most people do not know is that the HD ECM has what is called Adaptive Learning, which utilizes Long Term Fuel Trim (LTFT). When the XiED product is paired with the ECM in closed loop it makes adjustments to increase the fuel in Closed Loop. At the same time it is also learning and adjusting the LTFT to make it also run richer in Open Loop.
So with using an XiED product, it is enriching the AFR in Closed AND Open Loop. It is not noticed as much in Open Loop because it is not dangerously lean in Open Loop like it is in Closed Loop.
There are some people that are very vocally opposed to the XiED...some of them understand how it works (and just don't like leaving power on the table), most do not.
The XiED products are NOT the best way to get an ideal tune with a Stock or Stage 1 bike, but they are 90% as good as a full tuner at 10-20% of the cost.
For many, who don't need every bit of available power, or are tight on $, they are the ideal solution to the EPA mandated too lean factory tune.
For others, the extra $ and effort of a flash tuner is worth it to get the very most power out of their bikes.
There is actually quite a bit more information on this subject, but I tried to keep this explanation short, just hitting the highlights.
#54
04-08-2014, 07:01 AM
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If you ride exactly the same after you install an XiED product as before, you will get the same or maybe 1-2 mpg more. However, most play with the the smoother acceleration and average 1-2 mpg less after installing an XiED product.
#55
04-08-2014, 12:18 PM
Kevin,
Thanks for the overview of the inner workings of the HD ecm.
I have a question about the adaptive fuel value ‘correction profile’. . . .
Is this something that is written to the ecm? In other words, when I shut the bike down for the day and come back tomorrow are the corrected values there to be used, or will I have to ride for X minutes for them to be generated?
If the battery is disconnected do the adaptive fuel values get flushed and the ecm starts from the stock values and map?
Regards
Ironsun
Thanks for the overview of the inner workings of the HD ecm.
I have a question about the adaptive fuel value ‘correction profile’. . . .
Is this something that is written to the ecm? In other words, when I shut the bike down for the day and come back tomorrow are the corrected values there to be used, or will I have to ride for X minutes for them to be generated?
If the battery is disconnected do the adaptive fuel values get flushed and the ecm starts from the stock values and map?
Regards
Ironsun
#56
04-08-2014, 03:09 PM
Thanks for all that DK, its interesting to know how the bike actually adapts, even when in open loop. I just got your XIED delivered today, so after putting everything on this weekend we'll have to see how she runs.
This is a terrific question though, I'd love to know the answer too.
Kevin,
Thanks for the overview of the inner workings of the HD ecm.
I have a question about the adaptive fuel value ‘correction profile’. . . .
Is this something that is written to the ecm? In other words, when I shut the bike down for the day and come back tomorrow are the corrected values there to be used, or will I have to ride for X minutes for them to be generated?
If the battery is disconnected do the adaptive fuel values get flushed and the ecm starts from the stock values and map?
Regards
Ironsun
Thanks for the overview of the inner workings of the HD ecm.
I have a question about the adaptive fuel value ‘correction profile’. . . .
Is this something that is written to the ecm? In other words, when I shut the bike down for the day and come back tomorrow are the corrected values there to be used, or will I have to ride for X minutes for them to be generated?
If the battery is disconnected do the adaptive fuel values get flushed and the ecm starts from the stock values and map?
Regards
Ironsun
#57
04-08-2014, 08:39 PM
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#58
04-09-2014, 07:56 AM
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Kevin,
Thanks for the overview of the inner workings of the HD ecm.
I have a question about the adaptive fuel value ‘correction profile’. . . .
Is this something that is written to the ecm? In other words, when I shut the bike down for the day and come back tomorrow are the corrected values there to be used, or will I have to ride for X minutes for them to be generated?
If the battery is disconnected do the adaptive fuel values get flushed and the ecm starts from the stock values and map?
Regards
Ironsun
Thanks for the overview of the inner workings of the HD ecm.
I have a question about the adaptive fuel value ‘correction profile’. . . .
Is this something that is written to the ecm? In other words, when I shut the bike down for the day and come back tomorrow are the corrected values there to be used, or will I have to ride for X minutes for them to be generated?
If the battery is disconnected do the adaptive fuel values get flushed and the ecm starts from the stock values and map?
Regards
Ironsun
Disconnecting the battery does NOT reset them. With a flash tuner, like the Power Vision, you can reset them anytime you like. I am not sure if there is a way to reset them without a flash tuner....but there really is no need. It is constantly learning....every time you ride it is being updated to current conditions.
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#59
04-09-2014, 08:14 AM
3rd Gear
CK.out thunder max "Auto tune" I have run mine for 14K miles, No mapping required, Live in La. rode to CO. 8000 ASL. never A ping or overheating. pulling A trailer. added 2 into 1 -2 exhaust. high flow Intake, easy start cams+ lift, dur. lifter shims, Harley dealer will not sell ya anything they don't make money on. I don't deal with them. DIY guy here.
#60
04-09-2014, 09:13 AM
Yes, it is written to the ECM and stays in the ECM until it is specifically removed/reset.
Disconnecting the battery does NOT reset them. With a flash tuner, like the Power Vision, you can reset them anytime you like. I am not sure if there is a way to reset them without a flash tuner..
Disconnecting the battery does NOT reset them. With a flash tuner, like the Power Vision, you can reset them anytime you like. I am not sure if there is a way to reset them without a flash tuner..
I could always tell a difference in how the bike ran for a few hundred miles after disconnecting the battery.