Shifting down
#11
09-10-2013, 03:39 AM
Banned
The biggest con to engine braking is tire wear. For the fellas that ride only when the sun is up on the weekends and park it when temps get below 70 will most likely get tired of a rear tire or it will age out before it wears out. Everyone I know who engine brakes get half the tire life. For me that would be an extra 1-2 tire changes a year. If you have an EFI bike with a rear disc brake its also pointless. Older carb'd bikes will have a greater engine brake effect, add in a drum rear brake and it just might be smart to engine brake. I have noticed new EFI bikes, they do not engine brake as well and the rear disc brake is many times over better than a drum brake. Making engine braking almost dangerous on an EFI bike because it really dont slow you down much, its just a hold over from older days.
I have also noted that grabbing a hand full of brake has never made the bike go much faster, if at all. In reality engine braking dont slow you down much, might feel like it, but you are still covering some ground. Rolling to a light with the nearest cage behind you being half a mile or more it might be safe, but them heffers always complain they never see us. Safest thing to do is flash that brake light.
On a sunday stroll I guess its ok, but if you bike all the time year round its a tire burner, less safe, and really dont stop you that much anyway. I would love to see a 60 to 0 engine brake test, its going to be over a mile on an EFI bike compared to 124' when you use the foot and hand lever.
I have also noted that grabbing a hand full of brake has never made the bike go much faster, if at all. In reality engine braking dont slow you down much, might feel like it, but you are still covering some ground. Rolling to a light with the nearest cage behind you being half a mile or more it might be safe, but them heffers always complain they never see us. Safest thing to do is flash that brake light.
On a sunday stroll I guess its ok, but if you bike all the time year round its a tire burner, less safe, and really dont stop you that much anyway. I would love to see a 60 to 0 engine brake test, its going to be over a mile on an EFI bike compared to 124' when you use the foot and hand lever.
#12
09-10-2013, 03:58 AM
#13
09-10-2013, 05:01 AM
I apologize ahead of time for being a windbag. Wish I could express this in less words....
Hi Eisentreiber. You make some points, so...
Hmmm... if I wasn't clear, I apologize...
I understood the OP to be specifically asking about "downshift instead of using brakes" (his words), i.e. "engine braking", a common practice for automobile stick-shift driving.
I was specifically addressing engine-braking, and cautioning to go learn about it in more depth. The physics involving 4 wheelers in motion is very different from 2 wheelers, and there is more to the story than what appeared posted initially - so I chimed in. After all, it wouldn't be right to allow a new rider to become complacent with simply what they first pick up ;^)
I am not knocking what anyone else posted. Simply adding to the mix.
The mention of "sudden situation" was intended to bring attention to the following idea --"how we respond to (any) situations based on what we learn and how train".
If you spend time training using a wrong, or a weak or slightly off or incomplete technique, then when the "chips are down" (sudden situation) that is the understanding and technique you will automatically fall back on.
So while a certain technique based on an incomplete (or comfortable) understanding may not cost you in many or even most instances (like if you are a casual rider), is it "correct" or really "safe" to rely on if ultimately it is not in harmony with the reality of physics?
I think not, but then I have always ridden hard, so the finer details matter to me perhaps more than other style rider, and have influenced development of my own riding skills.
----------------
Personally, right or wrong... I learned that you do not engine-brake motorcycles, and for several reasons. That's what I found being shared from anyone seemingly very knowledgeable who taught or shared riding wisdom with me, from street or club folk on to including formal training instructors I have met, and also my race training instructors (when I was into that). That's more than a handful of people.
Its not that you never do it "to any extent". However, if you do/treat braking for a bike same as you would a car, at a certain level the physics will not hold you. Weight displacement forces during acceleration and deceleration is managed very differently for 4 wheelers vs 2 wheelers. At a certain point engine-braking on a bike can result in unmanagable predicament(s), and that could cost you (which is why I bothered to express an opinion here- rather than blow past this discussion when I spotted it, considering it is a new rider asking).
Perhaps what I learned is not what someone else has learned, and I won't knock what works for someone else. Hell, I don't claim to know everything, or even much. All I can tell you is that what I learned has provided great insights in my own discoveries in ride handling, and has served me well ...so now you have another opinion to investigate.
Calling me out, eh? ;^) Cool, I can dig it... Okay then. I will go find a couple links right now, and post back.
.........
::5 minutes later::
Ok, I went to google and did this search.
Here is one article, and one topic (at some otherwise-unknown-to-me "motorcycle safety discussion group") that are discussing what appear to me to be relevant considerations in this regard. There's a busload out there.
I am not going to spend time "doing home work" for others, and I don't care to go toe to toe on points -that's not the issue.
I am not saying what's posted in those links is gospel. Those were some of the first hits is all.
I am not into judging what works for others either.
I am simply another voice/opinion, saying I have worked the problem, in the saddle, -for me- and over long years, and I learned good stuff.
I am saying there is a lot of relevant info being discussed and presented "out there", and I think it jibes with some of what I have learned and seems to hold water -from my perspective- of riding.
BTW, when I first got on bikes I learned/used engine-braking. It was only later when I began getting more serious about riding that it was pointed out to me to handle things differently. Learning so made a world of difference in my potential command over, and relationship with... the machine, the road, and the experience. Just sayin'.
So I think deeper consideration of this subject from different perspectives may benefit anyone beginning to learn about this, because I think it goes well beyond the simple question of "this vs that style braking".
Just my two-sense.
---------------
Hmmm... if I wasn't clear, I apologize...
I understood the OP to be specifically asking about "downshift instead of using brakes" (his words), i.e. "engine braking", a common practice for automobile stick-shift driving.
I was specifically addressing engine-braking, and cautioning to go learn about it in more depth. The physics involving 4 wheelers in motion is very different from 2 wheelers, and there is more to the story than what appeared posted initially - so I chimed in. After all, it wouldn't be right to allow a new rider to become complacent with simply what they first pick up ;^)
I am not knocking what anyone else posted. Simply adding to the mix.
The mention of "sudden situation" was intended to bring attention to the following idea --"how we respond to (any) situations based on what we learn and how train".
If you spend time training using a wrong, or a weak or slightly off or incomplete technique, then when the "chips are down" (sudden situation) that is the understanding and technique you will automatically fall back on.
So while a certain technique based on an incomplete (or comfortable) understanding may not cost you in many or even most instances (like if you are a casual rider), is it "correct" or really "safe" to rely on if ultimately it is not in harmony with the reality of physics?
I think not, but then I have always ridden hard, so the finer details matter to me perhaps more than other style rider, and have influenced development of my own riding skills.
----------------
Personally, right or wrong... I learned that you do not engine-brake motorcycles, and for several reasons. That's what I found being shared from anyone seemingly very knowledgeable who taught or shared riding wisdom with me, from street or club folk on to including formal training instructors I have met, and also my race training instructors (when I was into that). That's more than a handful of people.
Its not that you never do it "to any extent". However, if you do/treat braking for a bike same as you would a car, at a certain level the physics will not hold you. Weight displacement forces during acceleration and deceleration is managed very differently for 4 wheelers vs 2 wheelers. At a certain point engine-braking on a bike can result in unmanagable predicament(s), and that could cost you (which is why I bothered to express an opinion here- rather than blow past this discussion when I spotted it, considering it is a new rider asking).
Perhaps what I learned is not what someone else has learned, and I won't knock what works for someone else. Hell, I don't claim to know everything, or even much. All I can tell you is that what I learned has provided great insights in my own discoveries in ride handling, and has served me well ...so now you have another opinion to investigate.
.........
::5 minutes later::
Ok, I went to google and did this search.
Here is one article, and one topic (at some otherwise-unknown-to-me "motorcycle safety discussion group") that are discussing what appear to me to be relevant considerations in this regard. There's a busload out there.
I am not going to spend time "doing home work" for others, and I don't care to go toe to toe on points -that's not the issue.
I am not saying what's posted in those links is gospel. Those were some of the first hits is all.
I am not into judging what works for others either.
I am simply another voice/opinion, saying I have worked the problem, in the saddle, -for me- and over long years, and I learned good stuff.
I am saying there is a lot of relevant info being discussed and presented "out there", and I think it jibes with some of what I have learned and seems to hold water -from my perspective- of riding.
BTW, when I first got on bikes I learned/used engine-braking. It was only later when I began getting more serious about riding that it was pointed out to me to handle things differently. Learning so made a world of difference in my potential command over, and relationship with... the machine, the road, and the experience. Just sayin'.
So I think deeper consideration of this subject from different perspectives may benefit anyone beginning to learn about this, because I think it goes well beyond the simple question of "this vs that style braking".
Just my two-sense.
---------------
#14
09-10-2013, 05:09 AM
#15
09-10-2013, 05:15 AM
#16
09-10-2013, 05:52 AM
Banned
#17
09-10-2013, 06:47 AM
I do the same in my standard cars as I do on bikes. If Im just slowing down, coasting, I match the gear to the speed when it gets there. Not using engine braking to slow down (though there is a little bit) just matching the gear to my speed. If Im stopping (normally or emergency) its all brakes. If its a normal stop I still downshift to roughly match the speed I am at the time, but the clutch is never released. If its an emergency stop or just a very hard stop (I practice hard stops on EVERY ride for muscle memory), then its all brakes and I dont worry about downshifting until Ive stopped.
#18
09-10-2013, 06:54 AM
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#19
09-10-2013, 07:24 AM
I love manual transmissions, and have a 5 speed in my cage. And with this cage I went the first 6 years of it's life on the original set of factory brake pads, always using the engine to brake with. The 10yo cage now has 121,000+ miles on it, with the same transmission, and although it's coming near it's lifes end, its still got the [knock on wood] factory clutch.
Like anything else there is a method. This is matching engine RPM's to speed to current-going into-coming out of-gear. I don't have a tach but after just a few rides and experience on the Sporty it was easy to judge the correct time to shift, whether it be an upshift or downshift.
V-twin engines by virtue of their design offer great engine breaking capabilities that the in-line metrics can't match, and as such you gotta' be a little more careful when engine breaking. You're not going to get hurled off the bike but a wham-bAnG 60mph 4th to 2ng gear downshift may come as a surprise if you're not ready for it. But the biggest problem that I think most have with this is clutch control...you need to let it out s-l-o-w-l-y, s-l-o-w-l-y. This will give the engine a little more time to comply with the combination of its current RPM and road speed, and you'll have a smooth transission to the next gear down, as such taking advantage of this "other" mechanical braking not associated with your actual brakes.
Like anything else though you can overdo it...like shortening the life of your clutch if you're really really hard on it. But in the end pick your poison correctly; take it easy on the clutch by downshifting correctly and you'll save your brakes for when you really need them!
=8^)
Like anything else there is a method. This is matching engine RPM's to speed to current-going into-coming out of-gear. I don't have a tach but after just a few rides and experience on the Sporty it was easy to judge the correct time to shift, whether it be an upshift or downshift.
V-twin engines by virtue of their design offer great engine breaking capabilities that the in-line metrics can't match, and as such you gotta' be a little more careful when engine breaking. You're not going to get hurled off the bike but a wham-bAnG 60mph 4th to 2ng gear downshift may come as a surprise if you're not ready for it. But the biggest problem that I think most have with this is clutch control...you need to let it out s-l-o-w-l-y, s-l-o-w-l-y. This will give the engine a little more time to comply with the combination of its current RPM and road speed, and you'll have a smooth transission to the next gear down, as such taking advantage of this "other" mechanical braking not associated with your actual brakes.
Like anything else though you can overdo it...like shortening the life of your clutch if you're really really hard on it. But in the end pick your poison correctly; take it easy on the clutch by downshifting correctly and you'll save your brakes for when you really need them!
=8^)
#20
09-10-2013, 08:39 AM
