Tell me if you think this is true.
#11
08-07-2013, 09:57 PM
Banned
Ignoring your highly technical term "Gronked", yes it is possible to achieve decent results on a dyno with what amounts to "drag pipes". After all, the drag strip and dyno are very much the same, in that the run/test is performed totally at WOT (wide open throttle). That's hardly a comparison to street riding where 95+% of your time is spent in the low-mid RPM range, and where your "gronked" pipes will perform poorly.
But, to each their own.
But, to each their own.
Never put one of my bikes on one, but you seem to know a few things, I think. First off you are aware popping the disc out of the baffle only opens things up slightly. Its not like ripping out the baffle and running them, only then would your drag pipe comparison be valid.
Also being such a smart guy, you reading what little I have done what kind of power increase do you need to drop .3-.4 off your quarter mile ET. I ran this bike box stock for more than a few pulls. Then I gronked it, opened the ham can and put a slimmer 5.5 pound lighter tire on the back. Speed going across the line is such a little increase I would have to say its not really going any faster in the quarter, but my ET is definitely quicker. Maybe about half mph faster.
So then smart guy what is it that reduced the times? What kind of power increase does it take to shed .3-.4 seconds? When I am just sniffing flowers on daily comutes to work I run in the 2800-3100 rpm range, thats right in the power band. Mirrors are real steady and a slight roll on the right wrist gets it up quick. No front end shake lugging up to the power band. Maybe thats why the dyno shows popping the disc is 93% as good as the best performing exhaust. They aint just straight through. I bet them pretty pipes on your ride is more free flowing than my exhaust. Are you one of them loud guys? Or one of them guys who never rides in that 95%?
I know, this is a show bike forum. I like looking at Nice bikes. Looking here Keeps me from gettin stupid and putting fat tires and super loud exhaust on mine, post here and there and watch the show bike guys get fired the eff up when someone who just rides makes a few comments.
Maybe I should start a thread on how I fix stone chips in my paint, but then I would get the how TF did you get stone chips in the paint replies.
#12
08-08-2013, 05:06 AM
Club Member
Going back to Jason's question about the bike adjusting to a change in air filter, the stock ECU is designed to adjust for changes in temperature, humidity and altitude, so we can ride the highways of our choice. It may well adjust for small changes, but that is not what it is designed to do - it has to meet EPA regulations after all. There is an informative sticky about why an EFI bike needs to be tuned over in the Technical Electrical section.
#14
08-08-2013, 06:30 AM
Banned
My next challenge for you is to break out that high megapixel camera and take a pic of how far you can pee. It will prove way more. Or how about you post a pic of your speedo maxed out with them S speed rated tires. Maybe a sound clip of how much noise them pipes make. Get the mic real close so as to make it sound REAL loud. Slick one liners prove one thing, and its pretty much what someone does not know.
#15
08-08-2013, 06:35 AM
Road Master
I installed the SE AC and did not do the download and my bike ran just fine. I did not skip it to go on the cheap. I just do not like to waste money. I also do not recall reading a single post about anyone having mechanical issues because they changed the AC, but did not do a download. However, I have read multiple posts stating that riders that had the download felt no difference.
I have no idea if it will compensate, but I think you'll be fine if you install the AC without doing a download.
I have no idea if it will compensate, but I think you'll be fine if you install the AC without doing a download.
Last edited by Big Lebowski; 08-08-2013 at 07:04 AM.
#16
08-08-2013, 07:29 AM
Intermediate
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Ninove, Belgium
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even if you do nothing to your bike, you can put new pipes and the air cleaner upgrade. The ECM will automatically compensate for the changes, bring the fuel mixture back to OEM. This is a design feature of closed loop ECM's like the HD Delphi.
So your fuel mixture will not go 'lean', it just will not get any better. Riders and Mechanics do not understand the HD closed loop ECM, so they try to scare everyone into getting expensive downloads or tuning. None of this is required, but it is nice to add extra fuel for improved performance.
Using the X14iED will richen the closed loop mixture from 14.6 to 14.0, and add about 6% more fuel in open loop for heavy/full throttle.
So your fuel mixture will not go 'lean', it just will not get any better. Riders and Mechanics do not understand the HD closed loop ECM, so they try to scare everyone into getting expensive downloads or tuning. None of this is required, but it is nice to add extra fuel for improved performance.
Using the X14iED will richen the closed loop mixture from 14.6 to 14.0, and add about 6% more fuel in open loop for heavy/full throttle.
#17
08-08-2013, 07:47 AM
The conspiracy is up guys, shut it down, call all the pipe, “chip”, & dyno companies, the gig is up and their money making schemes are over.
Aftermarket pipe, air cleaner & tuners are simply the 21st century version of snake oil or magic elixir and the dynos to prove their validity are just computer gismos that they can adjust up depending on how much $ you give. Aftermarket “free flowing” junk has been in use for about 60 years, originated from the garages of gearheads really wanting improvements, and it evolved to the 21st Century companies that exaggerated benefits and mass-produce their “snake oil”. It was well known in motorcycle development and motorcycle racing circles since at least the late 70’s that free flowing exhaust/air cleaners are useless and no better than a Gronk modded set of factory pipes. Even the Ancient Greeks described this “snake oil” for performance gains to be “searching for power among the tails of donkeys”.
Yet the companies that mass-produced found it big business and did everything within their considerable power to cover up the truth about “free flowing exhaust” & air intakes. Every one of these companies attempted to destroy the reputations of any true gearhead who sought to disclose the truth about “free flowing exhaust” or dynos. Dyno shops employed by the companies informed their techs that “aftermarket, free flowing exhaust” doesn’t do much of anything, but that as long as the workers are able to tweak their dynos to get the numbers beter, they should not be telling of the true results, since this would cause the companies financial numbers to decrease and not be able to pull millions from the unknowledgeable motorcyclist.
It will not be until lawsuits of many, proving the validity of a Gronk modded set of pipes, that then can we finally take down these companies, none of which will ever admit to any wrongdoing and probably they will just claim ignorance.
Aftermarket pipe, air cleaner & tuners are simply the 21st century version of snake oil or magic elixir and the dynos to prove their validity are just computer gismos that they can adjust up depending on how much $ you give. Aftermarket “free flowing” junk has been in use for about 60 years, originated from the garages of gearheads really wanting improvements, and it evolved to the 21st Century companies that exaggerated benefits and mass-produce their “snake oil”. It was well known in motorcycle development and motorcycle racing circles since at least the late 70’s that free flowing exhaust/air cleaners are useless and no better than a Gronk modded set of factory pipes. Even the Ancient Greeks described this “snake oil” for performance gains to be “searching for power among the tails of donkeys”.
Yet the companies that mass-produced found it big business and did everything within their considerable power to cover up the truth about “free flowing exhaust” & air intakes. Every one of these companies attempted to destroy the reputations of any true gearhead who sought to disclose the truth about “free flowing exhaust” or dynos. Dyno shops employed by the companies informed their techs that “aftermarket, free flowing exhaust” doesn’t do much of anything, but that as long as the workers are able to tweak their dynos to get the numbers beter, they should not be telling of the true results, since this would cause the companies financial numbers to decrease and not be able to pull millions from the unknowledgeable motorcyclist.
It will not be until lawsuits of many, proving the validity of a Gronk modded set of pipes, that then can we finally take down these companies, none of which will ever admit to any wrongdoing and probably they will just claim ignorance.
#18
08-08-2013, 08:34 AM
My next challenge for you is to break out that high megapixel camera and take a pic of how far you can pee. It will prove way more. Or how about you post a pic of your speedo maxed out with them S speed rated tires. Maybe a sound clip of how much noise them pipes make. Get the mic real close so as to make it sound REAL loud. Slick one liners prove one thing, and its pretty much what someone does not know.
The conspiracy is up guys, shut it down, call all the pipe, “chip”, & dyno companies, the gig is up and their money making schemes are over.
Aftermarket pipe, air cleaner & tuners are simply the 21st century version of snake oil or magic elixir and the dynos to prove their validity are just computer gismos that they can adjust up depending on how much $ you give. Aftermarket “free flowing” junk has been in use for about 60 years, originated from the garages of gearheads really wanting improvements, and it evolved to the 21st Century companies that exaggerated benefits and mass-produce their “snake oil”. It was well known in motorcycle development and motorcycle racing circles since at least the late 70’s that free flowing exhaust/air cleaners are useless and no better than a Gronk modded set of factory pipes. Even the Ancient Greeks described this “snake oil” for performance gains to be “searching for power among the tails of donkeys”.
Yet the companies that mass-produced found it big business and did everything within their considerable power to cover up the truth about “free flowing exhaust” & air intakes. Every one of these companies attempted to destroy the reputations of any true gearhead who sought to disclose the truth about “free flowing exhaust” or dynos. Dyno shops employed by the companies informed their techs that “aftermarket, free flowing exhaust” doesn’t do much of anything, but that as long as the workers are able to tweak their dynos to get the numbers beter, they should not be telling of the true results, since this would cause the companies financial numbers to decrease and not be able to pull millions from the unknowledgeable motorcyclist.
It will not be until lawsuits of many, proving the validity of a Gronk modded set of pipes, that then can we finally take down these companies, none of which will ever admit to any wrongdoing and probably they will just claim ignorance.
Aftermarket pipe, air cleaner & tuners are simply the 21st century version of snake oil or magic elixir and the dynos to prove their validity are just computer gismos that they can adjust up depending on how much $ you give. Aftermarket “free flowing” junk has been in use for about 60 years, originated from the garages of gearheads really wanting improvements, and it evolved to the 21st Century companies that exaggerated benefits and mass-produce their “snake oil”. It was well known in motorcycle development and motorcycle racing circles since at least the late 70’s that free flowing exhaust/air cleaners are useless and no better than a Gronk modded set of factory pipes. Even the Ancient Greeks described this “snake oil” for performance gains to be “searching for power among the tails of donkeys”.
Yet the companies that mass-produced found it big business and did everything within their considerable power to cover up the truth about “free flowing exhaust” & air intakes. Every one of these companies attempted to destroy the reputations of any true gearhead who sought to disclose the truth about “free flowing exhaust” or dynos. Dyno shops employed by the companies informed their techs that “aftermarket, free flowing exhaust” doesn’t do much of anything, but that as long as the workers are able to tweak their dynos to get the numbers beter, they should not be telling of the true results, since this would cause the companies financial numbers to decrease and not be able to pull millions from the unknowledgeable motorcyclist.
It will not be until lawsuits of many, proving the validity of a Gronk modded set of pipes, that then can we finally take down these companies, none of which will ever admit to any wrongdoing and probably they will just claim ignorance.
#19
08-08-2013, 08:36 AM
!!! LOL.
#20
08-08-2013, 09:11 AM
I was reading through my latest issue of American Iron magazine(issue #300, summer 2013) last night and the article for the tech section of hot xl was covering the installation of an s&s high flow intake with a muscle a/c cover. The article was a step by step process of the installation(with pics), and the installation was preformed by Dakota V-Twin. The article was written by Buck Lovell and during his summary of why installing a high flow a/c on a 2007 883, I read something very interesting. He stated and I quote, "If your bike is equipped with O2 sensors, you don't need a download or fuel tuner. Your stock ECM will adjust the EFI systems air fuel mixtures to compensate for this new air cleaner assembly." Is that true? Hopefully someone can shed some light on this statement. If its true it could save some money putting a high flow a/c on a stock 883. If this turns out to be true, what's the general opinion on how slip-on or full system exhaust would impact this statement, and would it matter if the exhaust was already installed prior to the installation of the high flow a/c, or added after.
1. Changing to a freer flowing A/C does not require a new tune or tuner (of any sort...according to Harley/others). The ECM can compensate for it in order to get back to the lean condition it is programed for per EPA standards.
2. Changing to a freer flowing exhaust does not require a new tune or tuner (of any sort according to Harley/others). Again, the ECM can compensate for it.
3. HARLEY recommends that if you change both that you either get their "Stage 1" download or a tuner (and of course a dyno...;-).
4. Others have said that there is no need to get a download or tuner if you change out exhaust and A/C.
My "opinion"...I think 1, 2, and 3 above are correct. I think 4 is probably correct too, but personally, I would not do it. The bike is already lean which to me is not an acceptable condition to begin with. When the bike was "stock" (original exhaust and A/C) I add X14IEDs based on my experience with them on my 2007 Ultra Glide Classic. This changed the AFR so that the bike was running a little richer than stock (in the closed loop mode). It made a noticable difference to me on the stock bike (I have no dyno runs, etc to back up the perceived improvements, just annedotal). I changed the mufflers out ran the bike with the X14IEDs with another noticable change (no dyno). I added a SE A/C with K&N Filter and ran the bike with the X14IEDs and did not notice any real change. I added a Dynojet Power Commander V (from Fuel Moto) with the map installed for my bike's setup. I DID get a very noticable improvement (again no dyno).
Based on the above, I would recommend X14IEDs for just a minor change of A/C or exhaust (I look at as analogous with changing the jetting on a carb bike). I would also recommend that if you change both, that it is WELL WORTH the money to get a tune or tuner of some sort.
Again, my opinions based on what I have experienced going through the changes on my bike. IF I had to do it again, I would have waited a little longer and bought the Power Vision tuner (but I got the PCV from Fuel Moto used at almost half off price, so...too good of a deal to pass up).
Maybe someday I will get it dyno'd, and then again, maybe not.