I, along with everyone else, would love to see some proof of this self learning ECM. That would save everyone tons of money if true. It seems to me though that a lot of people do stage 1 upgrades and xieds or some kind of tuner is always needed.

 

The piggyback tuners are especially dependant on this argument that the ECM can handle the changes in the open loop range, but they never offer any reason that if they can do it in open loop, then why do they think they CAN'T do it in closed loop, which is precisely where their particular tuners do all their work. Wait, let me back up - they do offer a sentence on it on the niterider site, but it is easily argued away by someone with even a little knowledge of tuning. Nope, and not a single one of them has ever come on here to offer an explanation. Yes, I am calling these guys out. PLEASE, go back to your manufacturers and insist on some proof of this learning capability and more importanly, its limits. Please help us understand your product better, and don't let them get away with accusations without proof. Unless you already know the truth and are worried that it will in fact NOT set you free, help us understand. Demand truth and proof from your manufaturers. Ask them WHY if it is true then do you need a device to help out in closed loop but not in open loop. PLEASE.

I harp on this all the time - even the people selling the XIED on this forum haven't gone back to delphi or harley for some way to prove otherwise. For me - this is reason enough to offer that their products are a waste of money - they can't explain why their product is needed in closed loop (when the bike has MORE data) but not in open loop as well. Trust me, I WANT to be proven wrong on this one, it would mean that we ALL now have real, honest to goodness data on this MAGIC learning ability. For now, I ignore anyone using the adaptive learning feature to justify a product.

 

I mentioned that I purchased the V&H Power Dual '09 application for my '12 so if I ever wanted, I could purchase the Dynojet Power Commander Autotune to work with my PCV tuner. Are you saying the Autotune will not correct my baseline program?

 

Re: "they can't explain why their product is needed in closed loop (when the bike has MORE data) but not in open loop as well."

I believe the justification is that 99%+ of riding is done in closed loop mode. I'm completely satisfied with the stock map and X14ied even if it only adjusts the AFR in closed loop mode. Unless your racing your bike or looking to gain as much HP as possible I can't see justifying the additional expense.

 

I'm not saying anything about that.

 

That is my plan, My '03 is radically modified so the PC USB III is always getting tweaked. I really like my PCUSB III so purchased the PCV for the '12 and was hoping that if I ever modify beyond my tuning ability I would simply purchase the Autotune for $300 and Auto Tweak it

 

An ECM has parameters that have a min/max and no matter how much you "reset" it, it wil not adjust itself. The Tuner doesnt adjust the ECM tables it reflashes the ECM which totally removes the stock and reinstalls the new tables/parameters. I would have told that dealer that theyre full of it and made them sign a responsibility contract so when the bike lokced up thay would replace/rebuild it. They would have turned you away right away.

 

First, according to Fuel Moto (and my tuning my own bike) the Delphi Harleys have fuel trims. From http://www.fuelmotousa.com/PVlogtuner.htm

For those that don't understand what STFTs and LTFTs are, STFTs are "notes" that the ECM takes while you are cruising around in Closed Loop. The VE tables store how much fuel the ECM should command for a certain MAP value at a certain RPM. The Air/Fuel ratio table also contains a specific A/F ratio the ECM should see from the O2 sensors for that same RPM and MAP reading. If the A/F reading comes back from the O2 sensors reads leaner than what the ECM has stored in the A/F table, it needs to tell the injectors to squirt in more fuel.

Problem is the ECM cannot (and for good reason) just rewrite the value in the VE table. So it makes a "note" that for X RPM and Y MAP I need to take Z fuel from the VE table then add another T amount of fuel from the STFTs. It records this note in the STFTs. While you are in closed loop, the ECM is making tons of these notes every second.

When you jump into Open Loop (Heavy throttle and higher MAP numbers) the ECM is now ignoring the O2 sensors so it also will ignore the STFT notes. The reason being is because things are changing so fast in Open Loop (usually you are accelerating very hard) the data that is coming back from the O2 sensors is too "old" for the ECM to use in order to apply that information to what's going to be happening next. You may be "reading" data for an RPM range of 2250 but by the time the ECM gets the info and goes to use it you're already in the 2500 RPM range.

So what the ECM does is take an "average" if you will of all those STFT entries and saves them in the LTFT for use during Open Loop. Thus when you go into open loop, the ECM now says "For X RPM at Y MAP I need to take Z fuel from the VE table then add another T amount of fuel from the LTFTs"

Thus both the STFTs and LTFTs are "learned" by the ECM. This is the principle that makes the Xieds work. They trick the ECM into believing the readings from the O2 sensors are greater than what they really are and thus the "notes" the ECM makes in the STFTs and LTFTs are for more fuel than would normally be recorded. Since the STFTs and LTFTs are TRIMS they can only make small adjustments and hence why, beyond a Stage 1 upgrade, you'll need more than Xieds.

As for the PV "handling" the STFTs and LTFTs, yes and no.

Some people may tell you that after you do a modification to your bike that you're going to want to ride it for a few miles for the bike to "learn" the mod. Or you may hear how, after someone has made a mod to their bike, that after "about 100 miles or so" the bike seemed different or to react better to the mod. This is the affect of the STFTs and LTFTs...the bike is "re-recording" how much fuel to add (or take away) with the new setup.

Thus there is no "learning" during open loop operation but the information recorded during closed loop in the STFTs does get translated into the LTFTs. When we tuned our Pontiac Grand Prix's one thing we did to check our tunes is to see if the LTFTs locked into 0 when we went into Open Loop (positive numbers meant the ECM was adding fuel, negative meant it was taking it away).

What you're trying to say is right, but your way of saying it is wrong. The ECM does have min and max ranges in it's tables. You have 0 - 100% on the MAP side and a certain range (500-7,000 I think) on the RPM side in your AF and VE tables. When you flash an ECM, you are NOT deleting these tables and replacing them with new tables. The tables, and their ranges, stay the same. What you ARE changing is all the data within those tables.

 

Excellent!

But referencing the fuel moto info is exactly what I'm complaining about - everyone points to two or three sentences and says "there's the proof". It's interesting but shows no ranges, either. I say it's all horse hockey unless it comes from HD or Delphi. I'm not believing anything else.

You stated this;
When you jump into Open Loop (Heavy throttle and higher MAP numbers) the ECM is now ignoring the O2 sensors so it also will ignore the STFT notes. The reason being is because things are changing so fast in Open Loop (usually you are accelerating very hard) the data that is coming back from the O2 sensors is too "old" for the ECM to use in order to apply that information to what's going to be happening next. You may be "reading" data for an RPM range of 2250 but by the time the ECM gets the info and goes to use it you're already in the 2500 RPM range.

This is not the case with the Delphi system on our Harleys. The reason the O2 sensor data is not used is because of the narrow range (band) O2 sensors. They simply cannot read into the AFR ranges required for good operation at WO/Heavy throttle.

So what you are saying, if I understood correctly is that you believe the ECM takes the trim readings it needs under closed loop and applies some algorithm to make corrections in the open loop areas? This is interesting but I'm still searching for proof - not from fuel moto or anyone else selling tuners. I'm trying to get a HD engineer on the phone but it seems easier to talk to Obama.

 

You are correct in that Narrow Band O2s do not have a wide sensing range and that in WOT conditions they would not be able to report the actual AF reading that you're shooting for but then why is it that cars that come with Wide Band O2s still have an open and closed loop?

Delphi also makes the EFI systems on my Grand Prix for GM. We have STFTs and LTFTs on there and this is EXACTLY how they work. This is why, after we tune and clear our trims, we drive the car normally for about 50-100 miles in order for the LTFTs to get set by the STFTs. Then we romp on it and scan to see what the tune has changed. We shoot for LTFTs to be at 0 or, at the very least, no more than -1/+1.

BUT I'll go home tonight and see if I have the option on my PowerVision to scan for STFTs and LTFTs. If I can record the data off the ECM in real time...that should suffice for evidence that it's there.