Pipes and a/c what tuning device?
#12
03-13-2012, 10:33 PM
Platinum Sponsor
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Red Banks, Mississippi
Posts: 17,679
Received 4,157 Likes
on
2,421 Posts
I've been running the X14iED's on my Sporty for years and am very happy with them. At DK Custom we have referred so many people to the cost effective XiED family that we finally started carrying them ourselves.
Check em out.
A few months ago I had my sporty on the Dyno making some charts for the Thunder Torques and Outlaw Air Cleaners.
While cruising thru the gears (in closed loop) the X14iEDS was giving it an AFR of 13.95:1 +- .10
That was with a free flowing filter and exhaust.
Check em out.
A few months ago I had my sporty on the Dyno making some charts for the Thunder Torques and Outlaw Air Cleaners.
While cruising thru the gears (in closed loop) the X14iEDS was giving it an AFR of 13.95:1 +- .10
That was with a free flowing filter and exhaust.
#13
03-14-2012, 01:47 AM
Tourer
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#14
03-14-2012, 09:46 AM
Road Master
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Cottage Grove MN
Posts: 1,056
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is Cobra's contact info call and argue with them about it...I am only copy and pasting what THEY STATE.
COBRA ENGINEERING
Phone: (714) 692-8180
#15
03-14-2012, 12:09 PM
Road Master
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Cottage Grove MN
Posts: 1,056
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No where in any of Cobras claims do they say it can adjust ignition timing. If it can I welcome their comments and I will admit I am wrong but I have thouroghly read their literature and they say nothing about timing adjustments only air/fuel.
I have used Cobras products before and was very disappointed. Same thing with the fuel pak.
I have used Cobras products before and was very disappointed. Same thing with the fuel pak.
"No matter what kind of new hardware you install on your bike--a new exhaust system, a freer-flowing air filter setup or even a big-bore hop-up kit with high-performance cams, PowrPro continues to analyze and tune your engine for peak performance."
Here the link to what THEY say...Just sayin
http://cobrausa.com/fuel.php
As I stated already, I never said it could adjust timing.
#16
03-14-2012, 02:02 PM
From everything I have read, it works great for some and not so good for others. Sounds like almost every other product out there from that point of view.
I think it is important to carefully read what Cobra says. They say it will work with any engine mods but it does not say that you do not need a new map for your ECM to control the timing and other variables beside the AFR. Sounds to me like they are assuming you already have a ECM map installed for your current engine mods.
I think it is important to carefully read what Cobra says. They say it will work with any engine mods but it does not say that you do not need a new map for your ECM to control the timing and other variables beside the AFR. Sounds to me like they are assuming you already have a ECM map installed for your current engine mods.
#17
03-14-2012, 03:57 PM
Cobra's PowrPro/ How it works
I email my contact at Cobra the couple of links that are on the board about the new tuner. People seemed to have questions and he emailed me back with how it works. I hope this answers every ones questions. If not post them up or PM them to me and I will get them answered. Below is his reply back to me.
Ryan,
We’ve noticed that your forum members have been talking about the Fi2000 PowrPro and some have eveninstalled the unit, reporting great results. But many have questions about how it works, where it gets its info and how it knows what to do given that it’s not programming to a preset air/fuel ratio. Those questions are understandable and expected given that this really is a phenomenal product in every way. And how it works through its Patent Pending technology is really quite simple.
But it's difficult for people to grasp because previous Fi tuning products, even so-called auto tune units, were headed off in a completely different direction than we did with the PowrPro. With the new technology available to us and the speed of current micro chips, what we've done is taken all the data that you get from a dyno and sourced it from the motorcycle itself, then made almost instantaneous calibrations to achieve the best power/acceleration.
I've provided some information below excerpted from a section of a white paper that we've developed to help people understand how this product works, and why it works so well.
But remember, the Fi2000 PowrPro only corrects fuel. It does not correct poor product choices or combinations (say a high flow air filter with restrictive exhaust pipes, orshorty pipes with no baffles.). It does not alter timing. And the Continuously Variable Tuning feature of this product works under acceleration only. So Ihope the following information helps your members understand how revolutionary this product is.
What follows is a pretty good overview of how this products work, and from this the following should be clear:
This unit does not have to measure air temp changes, altitude changes, load changes or the other bits of data that get tossed about in conversations. It’s concerned with the rate of acceleration and adjusting the air/fuel ratio to create the maximum power given the combination of products and environmental conditions.
It is not tuning to a preset air/fuel ratio. In fact, that air/fuel ratio read by the oxygen sensors is simply the downstream by product of the engine making the most power it can.
If a bike has oxygen sensors, we make use of those sensors to adjust cruise fuel. They are not engaged when the bike is under acceleration.
Make no mistake this is a very sophisticated product that takes fuel-injection tuning to an entirely new level.
In developing this product, we thought a truly intelligent system should be able to gather and analyze the information it needs to make adjustments as you ride with no extra equipment, no extra hassles. This was the goal of the PowrProFi2000 with CVT— Continuously Variable Tuning without the need for dynos.
You already own a highly accurate dyno—your engine’s crankshaft. We think of crankshafts as turning smoothly, but in fact when a cylinder fires, it accelerates the crankshaft slightly. Every engine has some kind of torsional shock absorberbetween crank and gearbox, which is there to accommodate this slight variation in crank speed. With the application of modern high-speed electronics, we can access this information and
time the rotation of the crank from one firing to the next, and analyze whether the next firing is slightly stronger or weaker than the previous one.
Now comes the clever part: using the measurement of how hard a cylinder accelerates the crankshaft as a way to correct fuel mixture. If the mixture is a bit lean and the CVT system adjusts it to be a bit richer at the next firing, more power will be produced and the piston will give the crank a slightly stronger kick. We can use this as a tool to move from whatever fuel mixture the engine is actually receiving,toward a more efficient mixture.
The next step is a way to time the rotations of the crank, so crank speed at one firing can be compared with crank speed at the next firing. Fortunately, bike manufacturers give us this info for free--as the time from the beginning of one fuel-injection squirt to the beginning of the next one, 720 crank degrees later. Yes, the engine’s other cylinder may be slowing the crank by being on its compression stroke, but all we need is comparative information.
We also need to experiment with fuel mixture, just as race tuners or EFI programmers do. If we make the mixture a little leaner and the next crank cycle takes a little bit longer than before, we know we¹re going the wrong way. This is just like what old time race tuners did by changing carburetor jets and then looking at the bike¹s quarter mile ET or lap time. However, in the case of the Fi2000 PowrPro, this process now occurs up to 80 times per second--it¹s literally Continuously VariableTuning.
The Fi2000 PowrPro conducts its fuel-mixture tuning by varying the mixture slightly. If the crank moves a tiny bit faster when the mixture leans out slightly, the PowrPro knows that¹s the right direction and the system leans the mixture again--or vice-versa. With a big twin cylinder engine turning
5000 rpm, one cylinder is giving us 42 of these opportunities to tune the fuel mixture every second. The result is that the Fi2000 PowrPro continuously and quickly drives fuel mixture to the value that gives best power. This process allows the system to adapt to any engine modifications you make. It¹s like going to the drag strip with a stopwatch and boxes of carburetor jets up to 80 times every second.
When this system was still in its initial planning stages, one option under consideration was to use this data to create a new conventional fuel map similar to the one programmed into the engine¹s stock EFI, and then to periodically update it. That turned out to be unnecessary because
Continuously Variable Tuning does the same job without the expense and complication of storing, updating and retrieving data to or from a fuel map.
CVT is a continuous mixture-correcting process, not a fixed set of values “in a can,” like that of the stock EFI system or previous EFI tuning systems. Instead, CVT operates continuously, detecting throttle movement that indicates significant acceleration, and there is a threshold below which it switches to one of two other modes. If the bike has an exhaust oxygen sensor, this data typically controls the mixture in steady cruise or during slow roll-ons, and the PowrPro system adjusts this to 14.2- to-1 air/fuel ratio, giving maximum-power operation. If the bike has no oxygen sensor, the system observes the range of variation of mixture over several cycles and sets the mixture to the rich end of that variation.
I email my contact at Cobra the couple of links that are on the board about the new tuner. People seemed to have questions and he emailed me back with how it works. I hope this answers every ones questions. If not post them up or PM them to me and I will get them answered. Below is his reply back to me.
Ryan,
We’ve noticed that your forum members have been talking about the Fi2000 PowrPro and some have eveninstalled the unit, reporting great results. But many have questions about how it works, where it gets its info and how it knows what to do given that it’s not programming to a preset air/fuel ratio. Those questions are understandable and expected given that this really is a phenomenal product in every way. And how it works through its Patent Pending technology is really quite simple.
But it's difficult for people to grasp because previous Fi tuning products, even so-called auto tune units, were headed off in a completely different direction than we did with the PowrPro. With the new technology available to us and the speed of current micro chips, what we've done is taken all the data that you get from a dyno and sourced it from the motorcycle itself, then made almost instantaneous calibrations to achieve the best power/acceleration.
I've provided some information below excerpted from a section of a white paper that we've developed to help people understand how this product works, and why it works so well.
But remember, the Fi2000 PowrPro only corrects fuel. It does not correct poor product choices or combinations (say a high flow air filter with restrictive exhaust pipes, orshorty pipes with no baffles.). It does not alter timing. And the Continuously Variable Tuning feature of this product works under acceleration only. So Ihope the following information helps your members understand how revolutionary this product is.
What follows is a pretty good overview of how this products work, and from this the following should be clear:
This unit does not have to measure air temp changes, altitude changes, load changes or the other bits of data that get tossed about in conversations. It’s concerned with the rate of acceleration and adjusting the air/fuel ratio to create the maximum power given the combination of products and environmental conditions.
It is not tuning to a preset air/fuel ratio. In fact, that air/fuel ratio read by the oxygen sensors is simply the downstream by product of the engine making the most power it can.
If a bike has oxygen sensors, we make use of those sensors to adjust cruise fuel. They are not engaged when the bike is under acceleration.
Make no mistake this is a very sophisticated product that takes fuel-injection tuning to an entirely new level.
In developing this product, we thought a truly intelligent system should be able to gather and analyze the information it needs to make adjustments as you ride with no extra equipment, no extra hassles. This was the goal of the PowrProFi2000 with CVT— Continuously Variable Tuning without the need for dynos.
You already own a highly accurate dyno—your engine’s crankshaft. We think of crankshafts as turning smoothly, but in fact when a cylinder fires, it accelerates the crankshaft slightly. Every engine has some kind of torsional shock absorberbetween crank and gearbox, which is there to accommodate this slight variation in crank speed. With the application of modern high-speed electronics, we can access this information and
time the rotation of the crank from one firing to the next, and analyze whether the next firing is slightly stronger or weaker than the previous one.
Now comes the clever part: using the measurement of how hard a cylinder accelerates the crankshaft as a way to correct fuel mixture. If the mixture is a bit lean and the CVT system adjusts it to be a bit richer at the next firing, more power will be produced and the piston will give the crank a slightly stronger kick. We can use this as a tool to move from whatever fuel mixture the engine is actually receiving,toward a more efficient mixture.
The next step is a way to time the rotations of the crank, so crank speed at one firing can be compared with crank speed at the next firing. Fortunately, bike manufacturers give us this info for free--as the time from the beginning of one fuel-injection squirt to the beginning of the next one, 720 crank degrees later. Yes, the engine’s other cylinder may be slowing the crank by being on its compression stroke, but all we need is comparative information.
We also need to experiment with fuel mixture, just as race tuners or EFI programmers do. If we make the mixture a little leaner and the next crank cycle takes a little bit longer than before, we know we¹re going the wrong way. This is just like what old time race tuners did by changing carburetor jets and then looking at the bike¹s quarter mile ET or lap time. However, in the case of the Fi2000 PowrPro, this process now occurs up to 80 times per second--it¹s literally Continuously VariableTuning.
The Fi2000 PowrPro conducts its fuel-mixture tuning by varying the mixture slightly. If the crank moves a tiny bit faster when the mixture leans out slightly, the PowrPro knows that¹s the right direction and the system leans the mixture again--or vice-versa. With a big twin cylinder engine turning
5000 rpm, one cylinder is giving us 42 of these opportunities to tune the fuel mixture every second. The result is that the Fi2000 PowrPro continuously and quickly drives fuel mixture to the value that gives best power. This process allows the system to adapt to any engine modifications you make. It¹s like going to the drag strip with a stopwatch and boxes of carburetor jets up to 80 times every second.
When this system was still in its initial planning stages, one option under consideration was to use this data to create a new conventional fuel map similar to the one programmed into the engine¹s stock EFI, and then to periodically update it. That turned out to be unnecessary because
Continuously Variable Tuning does the same job without the expense and complication of storing, updating and retrieving data to or from a fuel map.
CVT is a continuous mixture-correcting process, not a fixed set of values “in a can,” like that of the stock EFI system or previous EFI tuning systems. Instead, CVT operates continuously, detecting throttle movement that indicates significant acceleration, and there is a threshold below which it switches to one of two other modes. If the bike has an exhaust oxygen sensor, this data typically controls the mixture in steady cruise or during slow roll-ons, and the PowrPro system adjusts this to 14.2- to-1 air/fuel ratio, giving maximum-power operation. If the bike has no oxygen sensor, the system observes the range of variation of mixture over several cycles and sets the mixture to the rich end of that variation.
#18
03-14-2012, 04:15 PM
So as I said it does not have the ability to alter timing, which on most of my 1250 builds needs to be done, since we are raising the compression ratio significantly. I think it is a fine product for stage 1 type (air box and exhaust) of mods but I do not seee it as being sufficent for one of my 1250 builds where we are changing compression. Even on my basic 883-1250 kits for carbed bikes we need to have the abilty to change the timing.
#19
03-14-2012, 08:52 PM
Road Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Hartford, WI
Posts: 958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So as I said it does not have the ability to alter timing, which on most of my 1250 builds needs to be done, since we are raising the compression ratio significantly. I think it is a fine product for stage 1 type (air box and exhaust) of mods but I do not seee it as being sufficent for one of my 1250 builds where we are changing compression. Even on my basic 883-1250 kits for carbed bikes we need to have the abilty to change the timing.
But if Cobra would like to send me a system to test I would be hapy to do so on one of my 2 fuel injected Sportys and compare it to the power commanders I am running now.
But if Cobra would like to send me a system to test I would be hapy to do so on one of my 2 fuel injected Sportys and compare it to the power commanders I am running now.
#20
03-14-2012, 08:54 PM
Road Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Hartford, WI
Posts: 958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts