1200C: Thanks for your feed back on my post. Your view point illustrates the "status quo" for most senior riders of H-D bikes. I am also a senior rider, but come from a racing backqround. We are individuals with our likes and dislikes. I was trying to look at making valid suggestions to joelb's questions. It seems to me that H-D MOCO can't continue to rest on its laurels with a 18 year old marking plan. Times they are a changin. The question is not what you and I want in a Harley. It is what will the buying public of the future want? If H-D wants to be around 20, 30 or 100 more years, they need to recognize and react to what the market really is on that 20th, 30th, or 100th year in the future for a motorcycle manufacturer.

I should have elaborated on my idea of a "starter" bike requirements; 450 lbs. max seems to be about right and 3/4 to 7/8 ths the size of the XL 883, with an entry price of $4 to $5k would bring in a lot of first time buyers to the H-D fold. Harley lost market share and got into trouble before because they self limited their appeal to an ever diminishing market. They can do it again after the buying surge of the baby boomer crowd is over.

I did buy a XL1200 R. The bike weighs way too much for the stock suspension if driven hard at all. I didn't want a cruiser. I wanted a competent sports bike that was a Harley. It is a shame that I have to spend more money on aftermarket parts to get it.

I wished I had made one more suggestion on the original post; I think that H-D should get back into racing in a big way. Competition and the research that goes into making the racer fast and reliable always eventually makes it way in some part to the production line.

I wasn't trying to make the statement that all H-D products should slim down, just that they could be slimmed down and lots of new buyers would appreciate that. I also do not like plastic, but the use of aluminum, titanium or boron fiber products in well engineered situations to replace heavier made parts wouldn't bother me and would bring in new buyers. Thanks again for your view point and stated opinion. ............. BC

 

You are right. Harley is lacking in that department. They have buell blasts, but those aren't harley-like cruisers. With MSF courses recommending you start on small bikes most of the sales go to the Japanese and this probably hurts harley as some hold a special place in their heart for their first bike. Although, I started out on a 1200 sportster and I am still here and no accidents.

I think the way Harley is moving is very cleaver and right. After all they have like 18 years of continous growth. Harley is planning for the future with bikes such as buell's and v-rods. The problem is that those bikes aren't moving off showroom floors. When the time comes I'm pretty sure the Mo-Co will move foreward and survive. Some buell technology is being employed in sportsters already. Just to put it into perspective I am 21 years old and want the old air-cooled, straight-cut gear, carbed harley and I can't imagine wanting anything else even with buells and v-rods available. Like I said if I wanted something else I would have bought a v-rod or a metric. Every one of the big four japanese companies has a harley clone in their lineup. There is a reason for that.

They are back in racing; they are racing the v-rod and were doing well. You are right that they aren't racing full blown, but with v-rod sales not that great there's no reason to pour more money into an area their customer's don't care about.

In that case you would have been better off with a buell. The roadster is more of a cruiser with some sport. The sportster has recently been moving more toward cruiser than sport. The new gearing has shaved off top speed from the 130 something mph area to the mid 120 mph area and the newer helical gears tranny (06) has shaved it off of that even more. The new frame, exhaust, etc. have also destroyed lean angles of 36/40 to 32/32 for the roadster and worse for the low and custom. You are right about the suspension. Harley has moved away fromt he sportster sport suspension, which would have been great on the roadster. Although, you could probably get the suspension up to par for $200-250 using progressive fork springs and 412 shocks. I think I understand what you mean about shaving weight when you think of the new sportster. It went from sportster to porkster.

 

1200C: You had me fooled! I assumed that you were much older. The conviction and clarity with which you make your points is unusual. I commend you and your ability to communicate.

I would sure like to hear from joelb about now to get some feedback on whether or not he is getting any useful information from our posts.

Commenting on your last post: You will someday learn just how short of time 18 years is in the lifespan of a viable productive manufacturer.

The crowds that are not coming into the H-D dealers to buy those V-Rods need to be "sold" in someway to expand their thinking beyond the metrics and to realize that H-D has on the showroom floor a viable alternative. Extensive racing efforts and advertisement of the results bring the buying public's attention to a previously unknown product. Extensive racing research and developement contribute in other ways.

The H-D Sportster Sport weighed around 485 lbs. The latest Sportsters are in at that plus 100 lbs. In ten years of development, H-D should have been able to take that 485 to 450 lbs. and still given us the Sportster of today.

Mind you, I am thrilled with my Roadster. I have a bad back and must sit pretty much upright. The Buell didn't allow me to do that. With some fine tunning and some aftermarket parts, I am getting my Roadster into the bike that I want to ride and ride hard for 5 or 6 years. The styling and paint are very appealing. The power is good. The durability is still a question mark, but not something that I am concerned about. With a change of exhaust system, the sound is H-D wonderful. You are right about the Progressive springs and shocks. That is of course the way I am going.

By the way, do you know why Great Britain has never been a big player in the personal computer manufacturing business? Because the British engineers have not figured out a way for their PCs to sit in your driveway and leak oil! BC

 

I'd just like to chime in to say:

1. I have no desire for a liquid cooled modern engine. OHV is modern enough for me.
2. I like the fact that my bike is heavy. It feels substantial. Light feels cheap to me, I don't know why, but it's how I feel.
3. My bikes was designed for cruising, and thats what bought it for, not for 9/10's riding.
4. Had the bike cost $4k, it wouldn't mean so much to me. Not that I want to throw money away, but at those prices you run it into the ground, and buy a new one. IMO it would cheapen the brand.
5. Aluminum, Ti, CF, XXX fiber. No thanks. Thats for a sport bike. Exotic parts cost exotic prices to repair.
6. This is my first HD. Im 33, and have waited since I was a small child to have one. It's exactly what I wanted. Now if those muscle cars from when I was a kid were still available new
7. On spending money to make it right. I don't think you can visit one bike forum and find everyone saying it's just right. Even those Hayabusa guys are tearing the things apart to upgrade. It's the nature of the beast.

Last comment...

This thread was started at the beginning of the school year. School is over now (at least fall semester) so I'd bet he is long gone at this point. Still a great read though!

 

I think this thread got off on a tangent between Harley-Davidson and other makes of motorcycles.

Remember, Jaguar could be chastised for not making a more "friendly-priced" model for the younger motorist, as well as Aston Martin, Lotus, Mercedes Benz, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, and on and on and on and on...

Harley-Davidson says "one thing" to the avid cyclist. That "one thing" is either good or bad, but it says "one thing". The MOCO makes a bike that carries on the traditions that got it through since 1903, and I for one ask that they "stay the course", market-share be damned...

Thumper26

 

Right, wrong, good and bad...all are relative. To most, I think, Harley Davidson has made their mark and have raised the bar in many ways over the years. Proof of that, not only the number of Harley Davidson owners and/or fans BUT the "level of devotion" of those people to HD production.

Personally, I would like to see more corporate structure/control over the service and sales departments (which are individually owned and operated). It seems the quality of service and sales provided by individual dealerships range dramatically. Although, a prospect has to be approved by the Corporate office, they still have personal and individual control on how their customer service is handled to a large degree. Sometimes, they really suck, sometimes they are outstanding. It would be nicer to see, great service for a great product ... across the board.

 

I've been pretty much avoiding this thread and I don't know why, but here I am and it ain't gonna be pretty !


I am tired of being nickled and dimed to death... buying a "KIT" only to have to buy the bolts and other parts.

When you buy a passanger peg "KIT"... it should contain "ALL" the parts needed, including but not limited to Brackets, bolts and some type pf peg.
However, HD kits contain a bracket.. that's it.. no bolts..no pegs.. no nothing. That is NOT a "KIT" !

When you buy a set of chrome pegs.. Common sense will say that chrome bolts should be a part of it... and lets not forget something as simple as the spring clips, HD does forget.

I realize this is a little specific, but is HD sells something as a kit... sell a kit with "all" the parts needed.
When the main part is chrome, all the parts associated with it should be chrome as well and the same if its in basic black.

Guages... Why no tach ?

Seat concerning sports... Sure they look good, but I wonder when the last time the CEO's parked their fat *** and tried to go 100-200 miles on them... You cannot.
For 9 grand, you would expect some level of comfort.

I like my ride, I like the looks and the way it sounds... This is why I bought this bike...

I guess what I'm getting at is... When a person buys the best bike made... you expect the mfg'r to use the best, most reliable parts and comfortable seat for the sporty.

 

I have to agree with THAT point, TennRider. They have capitalized on a lot of things...that's why ***** G is such a weathly man, me thinks. The bikes sell themselves...and all the shiney parts..well....we just GOTTA HAVE'EM ...now don't we! Their marketing stragegy is brilliant...to our demise.

 

Yes, HD employees do read these and other forums. Several of the comments relating to poor dealer service are surprising to me as an employee of HD. Giving the customer a quality bike and keeping that image is stressed from day one. I hope that problem dealers are the exception rather than the rule. I myself have never had a problem with service and there's only a couple of techs that know I'm an employee of HD so I know I'm not getting any special treatment.

HD

 

Wow, There were soooo many Long posts on here that I just couldnt read them all. The ones I did read I agree with. I got a 05 1200R and I think that I got the Valve seal issue but havent verified it yet. When I mention it to the dealer they said that type of Oil consumption is normal. Ya right I thought. Bought the SE fork Brace and stainless steel lines about 6 months ago. The chrome is already coming of the brace and I think I have a small pin hole leak in my front brake line. When I talked to the dealer about it I was told the parts only have a 90 warrenty on them. What a crock. I wont spend big bucks on Harley Parts again if I can help it.

The one thing I dont see is has anybody thought that the Reason harley has quality control / Crummy dealer issues is beacuse they Dont Care. I mean If they know your going to buy a Harley anyway because you like the look, like the sound, think your a bad *** or a harley gives you big ***** then Why invest in trying to fix it.

Think about it. You make a Product X. They have issues But people still buy the hell out of them anyway. Are you going to spend Big Bucks to fix it Even if people are already Buying them and will continue to do so weather you fix it or not. I think not. Thats why I think harleys quality control and delaer service is so crummy. They dont care.

Just my 2 cents.

LV