This morning's ride was particularly interesting.

I was using my usual combination of mostly front brake and some rear brake as I rode for about 3/4 hour. I noticed that the amount of throttle needed to maintain 55 to 60 mph on the level sections of road, on same directional bearing, was varying, and that was corroborated audibly by notably louder exhaust some of the time. When more throttle was needed and the exhaust was a bit louder, the engine felt subtly "less nimble".

At one point, I smelled something "burning".

So, I pulled to a stop and tried to touch the rear rotor. Instantly burned my finger - could not even hold my finger there momentarily.

I tried applying an disengaging the rear brake until it felt "freer" (took just a couple of tries and a fraction of a mile). I decided I would ride in to the local HD dealer and show him the problem.I kept off the rear brake for the rest of the ride to the dealership for fear that it would get worse and make completing the trip difficult or impossible.

When I got to the dealership, I explained the symptoms, but was told "this is normal". I insisted that a technician examine it. The service writer reluctantly agreed. About 2 hours later, I was called back to the service desk and told my bike was "ready" and had been washed for me.

But, when I asked what had happened, the service writer said a technician had ridden the bike for 12 miles, using the rear brake often, and had noted nothing unusual so "could not reproduce the problem". I asked to talk to the technician, and asked him if in that 12 miles he had not once noted any difference in the bike's or brake's behavior. He insisted he had not.

The service writer was nice enough to provide me with a no charge invoice record of the incident.

I asked him what I should do if it occurred as severely as it did earlier this morning (when I could smell it). He said IF that occurs, bring it in on a tow truck.

This doesn't leave me with a warm fuzzy feeling.

I know my bike really well, and am very sensitive to changes in it. I know this brake is not working consistently well. I guess I have to wait until the problem becomes big enough that the dealership can "reproduce the problem".

p.s. edit: I just noticed that the fuel mileage this morning was 40.6 versus my normal 4.35 to 45.5. Some of that in fairness might have been caused by the route to and from the dealership versus the normal Hill Country riding, but still . . .

Jim G

 

True if the master cylinder piston is not stuck in the one position causing the fluid to stay pressurized and causing the rear caliper pads to remain applied causing the extra heat build up. It could be the master cylinder not depressurizing the line or it could be the caliper pistons sticking causing the heat. He stated that it was intermittent.

 

You know how it is, when your car acts up and you take it to the dealer or mechanic it works perfectly normal. You might have to take the dealer up on the "IF that occurs, bring it in on a tow truck" so they can see and smell the problem as


yours is an intermittent problem.

 

This happened on mine just bwfore the rear wheel bearing failed for the second time...turns out the brake was helping hold the wheel on...check the wheel bearing to be safe...

 

Wow. This is NOT why I paid the money for a brand new bike versus a used one!

Jim G

 

Jim,

I rode quite a bit the other day and was thinking about this post. After a lot of stop and go traffic and a lot of rising in the open, I stopped numerous times and my rear disc is cool to the touch.

I definitely think you have an issue now. My Breakout is a 2014 as well. Sounds like a defective caliper to me.

 

djl also thinks I may have a problem, and mentioned this all to Nick at Shamrock Cycles, an Indy dealer here in Austin. I spoke with Nick this afternoon as a matter of fat, and he invited me to come down there tomorrow, assuming its doesn't rain. He wants to run the bike on his dyno at steady 60 mph and see if the rotor heats up without brake application, and then do a dyno coast down test, to see if the results are typical or abnormal. He wants to also bleed the system (he has the computer equipment that the HD dealers have, for handling ABS systems). He is curious about it himself because he has heard complaints from other owners of Harleys with ABS brakes. He figures we can both learn something via the diagnostic testing. He was surprised that my HD dealer did not at least bleed the system when I complained about it to them.

Jim G

 

Glad to hear that you are getting some help. Let us know the results. I have the '12 FLSTC with ABS, no problems at the moment but if it does happen it gives me somewhere to look.

 

Problem solved!

There WAS a problem, and good, professional diagnostics by Nick at Shamrock Cycles in Pflugerville, Texas, and his associate Brian, found it and solved it!

Here’s the story.

After I started this thread, djl on this forum, (who a few months ago also introduced me to Mike Lozano at Lozano Brothers), mentioned my problem, and lack of supportive response from my local HD dealer, to his friend Nick, who runs Shamrock Cycles.

Nick responded that he has heard complaints from other HD owners, particularly owners with ABS-equipped bikes, but has never had the chance to examine an actual situation. He asked djl to have me call him. When I did call yesterday, Nick immediately made a very generous offer: he said if I wanted to bring it to his shop, he would take a look and try to diagnose it – for free. With such a generous offer, I asked if I could come down there the next morning (today), and Nick said yes, he would be there by 9am and I was welcome to meet him then. He assured me he has the same computerized system that HD dealers use to work on ABS-equipped bikes, and said one of the things he would do is bleed the system as one o his diagnostics.

I got there a little early this morning, and was warmly welcomed by Nick’s associate “Brian”. Brian asked what I was in for, and when I explained, he perked right up when I mentioned that I had first noticed the problem after I got my new Pirelli tire installed at the local HD dealership. In fact, it was while I was doing a tire psi cold versus tire psi hot test that I accidentally touched the rear rotor and got a minor burn. Brian immediately said he had a theory: when the HD technician changed the tire, which requires removing the wheel and brake caliper, IF he did not re-install the “brake pad spring plate” absolutely correctly, there would indeed be a drag on the rear rotor, because the brake pad could not properly & fully retract.

When Nick arrived, he announced a multi-pronged diagnostic plan, that would look for the most likely causes of a rotor drag problem:

- Check the fluid level in the rear master cylinder: Nick says he has seen multiple instances where the master cylinder was very slightly overfilled at the HD factory, or subsequently when a bike was being serviced

- Test the ABS unit’s operation, using the computerized system, in case an ABS system malfunction was causing the drag

- Look for improper alignment of the caliper, rotor, or pads, and for any pad damage

- Look at the position and condition of the brake pad spring plate: This is a very complexly shaped piece of metal that holds the pads in correct position and also exerts spring pressure. This is the piece that Brian’s theory referred to. This piece requires knowledge and attention to detail to get positioned correctly.

Now, remember, my Breakout was new at the beginning of March, and that rear brake has only every been touched by (a) the HD factory and (b) Cowboy HD in Austin, where I bought the bike new, and where the Stage 4 kit work, the 1000 mile service, the tire change, and the earlier “diagnostic” on the dragging rear rotor have all been done.

That earlier “diagnostic” process at Cowboy HD consisted of:

- An initial dismissal of my complaint (HD brakes ALL run hot”), until I INSISTED that the brake be looked at

- A 12 mile technician test ride, after which the technician said basically “could not reproduce the problem”

- No ABS test

- No fluid level check

- Sending me home with a no charge invoice showing that I did report a problem but that “it could not be reproduced”

Here’s what we found today at Shamrock Cycles:

- The fluid level in the rear master cylinder was marginally high, as Nick has seen in some other cases. Nick says he isn’t sure that it was high enough to actually cause a problem – it was that close. Nick says that if the level is a bit too high, the pad tends to not retract fully when the foot pressure on the brake pedal is relieved. Nick adjusted the fluid level just a bit lower.

- Nick and Brian ran the computerized ABS test:






- The test requires connecting the computer to the ECM on the bike, and then following a series of test commands involving applying and releasing the brake, and pumping the brake for a prescribed period of time. This test found no problems with the performance of the ABS system.

- Then Nick and Brian examined the rotor, caliper, and pads carefully. The rotor fortunately showed no discoloration, and I reported no brake surging that would have been evident if the rotor had overheated and warped. One of the pads though exhibited what we all agreed were “screwdriver gouges” on its edge. Clearly, someone had had difficulty getting the caliper back on the bike after the tire change. There were also some markings on the caliper.

- Nick then disassembled the caliper, and he and Brian could readily see that the brake pad spring plate had indeed been improperly installed. That would have made it very hard to re-install the rear caliper after the tire change, and the perpetrator at Cowboy then apparently resorted to using a screwdriver to force things into place. That deformed the brake pad spring plate, and caused the dragging on the rotor. Nick PROPERLY installed the brake pad spring plate, and then everything went together just fine, without any problem. And by the way, yes, he used a torque wrench, set to the correct torque, to torque the caliper bolts. I notice things like that.

The ride home apparently proved that the improper brake pad spring plate installation had indeed been the problem: When I stopped after about 30 miles after leaving the shop, and using both brakes normally, both rotors were about the same temperature (“ouch” but not a burn when you touch them). The rear rotor was no longer much hotter than the front one.

Then, to test even further, I rode the last 6.5 miles home today using the front brake ONLY. When I then checked the temperatures of the front and rear rotors in my driveway, the front rotor was “ouch” hot but the rear rotor was only “warm to the touch”. (Front and rear rotors both should get warm to the touch (but not “ouch” hot) even if the brakes are not actually applied, as the nature of disk brakes is that the pads always drag just a little bit because there is very light contact when everything is working correctly.

These test results today are in stark contrast to my earlier pre-Shamrock testing, where the rear brake rotor was always much hotter than front brake rotor, even when the rear brake had not been used during a test ride!

So, what have I learned? Well:

1. My HD dealership apparently created the problem in the first place when they assigned an untrained or impatient “technician” to change my rear tire. It pisses me off that they assigned someone unskilled who did damage to my bike

2. My HD dealership did a pretty crappy job of “diagnostics” on the problem they themselves created.

3. My HD dealership basically said “it’s all in your head” – despite my 46 ½ years of motorcycling experience, and despite the fact that Shamrock’s later diagnostics proved I was correct.

4. Nick and Brian at Shamrock Cycles did what the HD dealership SHOULD have done: a professional, knowledgeable, and experienced diagnosis, and a proper correction of the problem.

Nick refused to accept any payment, even when I insisted, because he had promised to do this all for free. But he really wants a chance to tune my bike (he thinks he can get more out of it than Mike Lozano did, which is aiming high), so I offered to let him do so, so that I could actually pay him some money a different way for everything he did today for free. But he also then countered that he will only charge me if he can actually get more power out of my bike! To tempt me, he showed me the results of a tune he had done on another HD 103 with the same Stage 4 race kit that I have, and his peak power was higher (although that bike was not a Softail with the B engine and its power sapping balancer), but the low rpm performance was what got my attention: it was even better than what Mike had gotten out of my engine, and Mike’s tune had outperformed the HD dealership tune by up to 11 rearwheel torque ft lb in the 2000 to 3000 rpm range. So, I am going on vacation this weekend for 2 weeks, but we agreed that when I return, I am to call Nick, and we’ll set up a date and time to let him do his stuff! I am going to be looking forward to that dyno session eagerly!

5. The HD dealership may have the HD uniform shirts, the big building, the $98 per hour labor rate, and the blessing of Mother Harley, but Nick’s much smaller shop, with its $75 per hour posted labor rate, and its TRUE professionalism, really embarrassed the HD dealership today. It’s hard to argue with FACTS.

By the way, for those interested in finding out more about Shamrock Cycles, Nick says they are moving into a larger and better located building in January. They will then be only a fraction of a mile form the OTHER HD dealership in Austin. If today’s work is indicative of how Nick and his team work, both of the local HD dealerships better watch out. Cream always rises to the top eventually.

Jim G

 

I wish you lived close to me, I would milk you for every penny you have just like all these "super" tuners and shops are doing, rofl......

Ok, now to the serious stuff. Your problem is a fantastic example of why most people DO NOT take their bikes to the dealer for any reason. Yes, my new 2014 has a 2 year warranty like everyone's does. You will never see me and my bike at the dealer, not for that purpose.

My salesman tried to pull that "if you don't have your 1k service done here, it will void your warranty". I laughed in his face. I just completed that myself. In all honesty, change all your fluids and tighten your exhaust head port nuts. Everything else is just checking tightness, etc.

Jim, you have pissed a lot of money away on this bike getting things tuned, installed, etc. You have probably paid as much for that as you did the bike. Wrench it yourself if you are so inclined. Then you will know it is done right.