02-13-2015, 01:41 PM
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Everything Breakout! Find out everything you need to know! Some topics include:
• Customizing you bike
• Seats
• Risers
• And much more!
For more information check out these threads:More Threads
• Customizing you bike
• Seats
• Risers
• And much more!
For more information check out these threads:More Threads
The Everything Breakout Thread
#1131
08-22-2014, 06:19 AM
#1132
08-22-2014, 06:45 AM
Cruiser
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Location: Chicago
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#1133
08-22-2014, 09:22 PM
Cruiser
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Hey 24v. Did your Danny Gray seat move your sitting position forward more or do you sit the same distance as the stock seat?
#1134
08-23-2014, 07:31 AM
I think it is close to the same position, or maybe just a very slight amount forward. It feels more forward just because there is so much more back support compared to the stock seat.
#1135
08-25-2014, 08:14 AM
The 1st part of this comment is simply not accurate. While a lot of tuners do build "custom" maps that way a lot of them also start out with a zero map and run through each cell at a given throttle percentage/rpm value to create a truly custom map and then go in and tweak those values. Think about it, how did Dynojet, Bazzaz, Screaming Eagle etc etc create those initial maps for the world to use??????????????? The 2nd part of your comment again isn't exactly accurate either. True the professional tuner will get it more accurate than an auto tuner at that given time and in those specific conditions but what happens when the season changes and the weather gets cooler or hotter or you're riding in a different elevation for instance etc etc. What about wind velocity??? A bike on a dyno in some 100* shop somewhere with a shop fan blowing on it simply cant match the conditions you find traveling 70mph out on the open road. Unless you get your bike dyno tuned constantly to adjust for different conditions and have multiple "custom" maps you can jump back and forth to then an auto tuner is a very good instrument to have and can very well supplement for a true as you call it human tuner.
#1136
08-25-2014, 08:19 AM
Since tuning was brought up. I pose a question. What is auto tuning actually tuning too? What does it think the ideal tune is, and can it be adjusted?
I'm no professional but I know tuning well and have never gotten an answer on this.
What parameters is auto tuning adjusting to meet. For example what is ideal in auto tunings mind.
Think about it. How many pv2's are there? They all think the same thing is ideal to auto tune every bike too....what is that?
I'm no professional but I know tuning well and have never gotten an answer on this.
What parameters is auto tuning adjusting to meet. For example what is ideal in auto tunings mind.
Think about it. How many pv2's are there? They all think the same thing is ideal to auto tune every bike too....what is that?
#1137
08-25-2014, 11:17 AM
Stellar HDF Member
Since tuning was brought up. I pose a question. What is auto tuning actually tuning too? What does it think the ideal tune is, and can it be adjusted?
I'm no professional but I know tuning well and have never gotten an answer on this.
What parameters is auto tuning adjusting to meet. For example what is ideal in auto tunings mind.
Think about it. How many pv2's are there? They all think the same thing is ideal to auto tune every bike too....what is that?
I'm no professional but I know tuning well and have never gotten an answer on this.
What parameters is auto tuning adjusting to meet. For example what is ideal in auto tunings mind.
Think about it. How many pv2's are there? They all think the same thing is ideal to auto tune every bike too....what is that?
Some auto tuners have a fixed target AFR of 14.7 (not great for performance, and causes a HARLEY engine to run a little hotter than we like, but would keep the engine "California compliant" I suppose).
Some auto tuners have a fixed target AFR that is more performance oriented, like 13.5 for example.
Some auto tuners allow you to set your own target AFR.
The best ones allow you to set the target AFR by cell or range.
Don't ask me which currently available models do what. Since I prefer a human tuner using a dyno, I don't know which auto tuners take what approach.
Jim G
#1138
08-25-2014, 05:05 PM
Road Warrior
You are grossly underestimating what a GOOD human tuner can do. And, I am no tuner, but I am telling you in my posting what 2 different world class bike and car tuners have told me.
First, Mike Lozano himself, a world class tuner (Google Lozano Brothers) will only ever use a preexisting tune (AS A START POINT ONLY) if it is one that HE himself has done and on an engine that is reasonably similar. If he does not have a riot tune on a reasonably similar engine, he builds one from scratch, and can do so in amazing time. To do mine, he had nothing close enough that he had done, so he started with a 110 cu.in tune (for my 103 engine with stage 4 race kit) that he downloaded, and he manually adjusted the tables before his initial runs to get into the right ballpark, and then fine tuned.
And as for auto tuners, the bike before my current bike was a Honda VTX 1800R. With the help of 2 separate well known tuners (Johnny Cheese and Micah Shoemaker), I compared what they could do compared to a Cobra auto tuning unit.
The Cobra got into the right approximate range, and could slowly indeed optimize the tuner reasonably well at steady state cruiser, but was unable to handle throttle and load changes quickly enough - it let the AFR drift off target a LOT under those conditions. The autotuner did do a good job of making about the same PEAK power at 100% throttle as the human tuners did, but we could not get it to control dynamic throttle and load changes acceptably.
We ended up concluding that the auto tuner was a fairly decent solution for someone who did not have convenient access to a human tuner with dyno, but the performance improvements that Micah made, especially at part throttle and low rpm, were very dramatic improvements over the auto tuner.
Jim G
First, Mike Lozano himself, a world class tuner (Google Lozano Brothers) will only ever use a preexisting tune (AS A START POINT ONLY) if it is one that HE himself has done and on an engine that is reasonably similar. If he does not have a riot tune on a reasonably similar engine, he builds one from scratch, and can do so in amazing time. To do mine, he had nothing close enough that he had done, so he started with a 110 cu.in tune (for my 103 engine with stage 4 race kit) that he downloaded, and he manually adjusted the tables before his initial runs to get into the right ballpark, and then fine tuned.
And as for auto tuners, the bike before my current bike was a Honda VTX 1800R. With the help of 2 separate well known tuners (Johnny Cheese and Micah Shoemaker), I compared what they could do compared to a Cobra auto tuning unit.
The Cobra got into the right approximate range, and could slowly indeed optimize the tuner reasonably well at steady state cruiser, but was unable to handle throttle and load changes quickly enough - it let the AFR drift off target a LOT under those conditions. The autotuner did do a good job of making about the same PEAK power at 100% throttle as the human tuners did, but we could not get it to control dynamic throttle and load changes acceptably.
We ended up concluding that the auto tuner was a fairly decent solution for someone who did not have convenient access to a human tuner with dyno, but the performance improvements that Micah made, especially at part throttle and low rpm, were very dramatic improvements over the auto tuner.
Jim G
Im not "grossly" underestimating anything. I said a human tuner is the best option but changing conditions outside of a shop in the real world can "grossly" affect a tune. If you don't believe that then you have no idea what you're talking about. A dyno tune is to get everything dialed in as far as torque curves and optimal afr's. Once you get out on the road or on the track conditions change and in turn your tune is not optimal anymore. That's where an auto tuner comes in. So you can adjust for temp changes, air velocity, elevation, whatever. Auto tuners essentially let you dyno in the real world. Just about every form of racing from motorcycles to automobiles uses auto tuners, its how they gather their data So I say again try to understand what Im saying before you go off and dismiss it. Go call your buddy the Mike Lizano himself and Im sure he would agree.
#1139
08-25-2014, 06:30 PM
You aren't understanding what im saying. Im not saying zero out a map that is already on the bike. When you buy a bike and hook up a tuner to it you can choose to run the bike the with the stock calibration or upload a canned tune. Essentially the oem map is a "zero" map on the aftermarket tuner. So from that you would build your custom tune not from an uploaded canned tune. Try to understand what im saying before you dismiss it.
As for what a "tuner" starts with, that is solely up to the individual. You can achieve the same end goal starting with any calibration. If you are looking to build a custom tune, and are asking a price for it, then yes it is only gentleman like to start from a factory calibration. If you just want to touch up a good running bike, then why not start with one that has had a bunch of the work done and is already close?
If you truly understand what you are doing, either method will get you there.
#1140
08-25-2014, 07:57 PM
Relax bro. First, your coming after 2 guys in 24v and Jim that know their **** and are helpful around here.
I know tuning and haven't heard it referenced as "zero" anything so it wasn't obvious. Also, auto tuning and gathering data "data logging" aren't always one and the same. Most racing applications would not auto tune. they would data log, then a person would review the data and adjust the map.
Working off a canned tune doesn't make a tuner lazy, it makes them efficient. Why would I want to pay a guy to start from scratch on a dyno when I have a typical setup that he's already built custom tunes for a 1000 times over? Start with the closest one you've got and tweak.
I know tuning and haven't heard it referenced as "zero" anything so it wasn't obvious. Also, auto tuning and gathering data "data logging" aren't always one and the same. Most racing applications would not auto tune. they would data log, then a person would review the data and adjust the map.
Working off a canned tune doesn't make a tuner lazy, it makes them efficient. Why would I want to pay a guy to start from scratch on a dyno when I have a typical setup that he's already built custom tunes for a 1000 times over? Start with the closest one you've got and tweak.
You aren't understanding what im saying. Im not saying zero out a map that is already on the bike. When you buy a bike and hook up a tuner to it you can choose to run the bike the with the stock calibration or upload a canned tune. Essentially the oem map is a "zero" map on the aftermarket tuner. So from that you would build your custom tune not from an uploaded canned tune. Try to understand what im saying before you dismiss it.
That's what Im saying!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The stock oem fuel map is considered a "zero" map because no calibrations have been made, its the stock base map or a "zero" map. A lot of guys don't start their tunes based on the oem map. Instead they upload a canned tune that was made by the tuner manufacturer and then go in and tweak those settings. I truly believe its because a lot of them are lazy and working off of a canned tune allows them to get everything dialed in quicker because the bulk of the work has already been done.
You basically just repeated what I said. And there is no need to name drop because I have no idea who in the hell these people are. There are thousands of great tuners in this country besides the three you mention.
Im not "grossly" underestimating anything. I said a human tuner is the best option but changing conditions outside of a shop in the real world can "grossly" affect a tune. If you don't believe that then you have no idea what you're talking about. A dyno tune is to get everything dialed in as far as torque curves and optimal afr's. Once you get out on the road or on the track conditions change and in turn your tune is not optimal anymore. That's where an auto tuner comes in. So you can adjust for temp changes, air velocity, elevation, whatever. Auto tuners essentially let you dyno in the real world. Just about every form of racing from motorcycles to automobiles uses auto tuners, its how they gather their data So I say again try to understand what Im saying before you go off and dismiss it. Go call your buddy the Mike Lizano himself and Im sure he would agree.
That's what Im saying!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The stock oem fuel map is considered a "zero" map because no calibrations have been made, its the stock base map or a "zero" map. A lot of guys don't start their tunes based on the oem map. Instead they upload a canned tune that was made by the tuner manufacturer and then go in and tweak those settings. I truly believe its because a lot of them are lazy and working off of a canned tune allows them to get everything dialed in quicker because the bulk of the work has already been done.
You basically just repeated what I said. And there is no need to name drop because I have no idea who in the hell these people are. There are thousands of great tuners in this country besides the three you mention.
Im not "grossly" underestimating anything. I said a human tuner is the best option but changing conditions outside of a shop in the real world can "grossly" affect a tune. If you don't believe that then you have no idea what you're talking about. A dyno tune is to get everything dialed in as far as torque curves and optimal afr's. Once you get out on the road or on the track conditions change and in turn your tune is not optimal anymore. That's where an auto tuner comes in. So you can adjust for temp changes, air velocity, elevation, whatever. Auto tuners essentially let you dyno in the real world. Just about every form of racing from motorcycles to automobiles uses auto tuners, its how they gather their data So I say again try to understand what Im saying before you go off and dismiss it. Go call your buddy the Mike Lizano himself and Im sure he would agree.
Last edited by Msmall; 08-25-2014 at 08:09 PM.