ENGINE MODS... Worth it?
#31
07-19-2009, 04:49 PM
#32
07-19-2009, 05:46 PM
And where do you see this .99 correction factor? Are you looking at the same thumb I am? STD with the 5 algorythm smoothes peaks and valleys, but the number on average is going to be anywhere from 4-8% inflated over an SAE/5 run. Like I said its a good run, but I take the numbers with a grain of salt as they are inflated by both the GROSS/STD option and the significantly lighter spoked rims the bike employs. Realistic numbers at SAE/5 is going to be around 75hp/90tq roughly. And again my specific point is that a tuned BB kit with AC and pipes can and will better the peak numbers with a slightly broader tq curve.It will be close but the BB kit will have the tq advantage.
You never answered my question from several posts back - will a 96" w/stock heads and stock cam out perform my lil 88" w/stock heads and 21's
Also, my bike is still an 88" - remember. Those dyno runs are two different bikes with 95" BB kits with 21's and stock heads. So tell us again how my "significantly lighter spoked rims" on my bike effect those dyno runs that you take with a "grain of salt"....
I guess this guys lost also - installing 21's when he could have used stock cams... lol
http://www.americanrider.com/output.cfm?id=1054045
OP, sorry for derailing this thread big time... Im outa here, leavin it for those more, "knowledgeable" ???
Last edited by KumaRide; 07-19-2009 at 05:49 PM.
#33
07-19-2009, 06:05 PM
Gunmetal, You have said in a couple posts that 21's are like stock cams. Then show us bikes with 95" BB kit, no headwork and stock cams that get 100 lb's of tq. And, if what you are saying is true with 21's, then this holds true for 203's as they are also a "mild" bolt in cam with low to mid range tq. And, that cam is even EPA compliant. So anyone who installed 203, 21's... prior to a BB kit made the wrong decision as we should have just done a BB Kit.
You never answered my question from several posts back - will a 96" w/stock heads and stock cam out perform my lil 88" w/stock heads and 21's
Also, my bike is still an 88" - remember. Those dyno runs are two different bikes with 95" BB kits with 21's and stock heads. So tell us again how my "significantly lighter spoked rims" on my bike effect those dyno runs that you take with a "grain of salt"....
I guess this guys lost also - installing 21's when he could have used stock cams... lol
http://www.americanrider.com/output.cfm?id=1054045
OP, sorry for derailing this thread big time... Im outa here, leavin it for those more, "knowledgeable" ???
You never answered my question from several posts back - will a 96" w/stock heads and stock cam out perform my lil 88" w/stock heads and 21's
Also, my bike is still an 88" - remember. Those dyno runs are two different bikes with 95" BB kits with 21's and stock heads. So tell us again how my "significantly lighter spoked rims" on my bike effect those dyno runs that you take with a "grain of salt"....
I guess this guys lost also - installing 21's when he could have used stock cams... lol
http://www.americanrider.com/output.cfm?id=1054045
OP, sorry for derailing this thread big time... Im outa here, leavin it for those more, "knowledgeable" ???
A. First off, the newer 96" engines use a different(smaller) TB and smaller injectors. If your willing to allow a TB swap along with the typical tune with the AC and pipes, yes I would take a stock 96" over a mild 21 cammed 88".
B. Concerning your spoked rims: Take one of them off and twist the hub by your hand spinning the tire/rim. Now take a typical solid disc rim found on many harleys and do the sam thing. Spoked rims have alot less mass and tend to be less than half the weight of typical rims you find on Harleys. It takes more energy(torque which is by definition twisting force) to spin a typical mag rim than it does for a spoked rim which on average weighs alot less. I have seen torque/hp increases alone on dynos from people who switch from mag rims to spoked wheels alone, they tend to inflate your power numbers naturally.
C. this being said your more likely getting tq numbers around 90 foot pounds at the very best. Don't believe me? Swap your rear rim out for say a typical fatboy disc, find a dyno operator running graphs in SAE/5 and come back to post it. Ill be impressed if you hit 90 or close to 90 foot pounds at any point in the graph.
#34
07-19-2009, 08:12 PM
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Gunmetal, You have said in a couple posts that 21's are like stock cams. Then show us bikes with 95" BB kit, no headwork and stock cams that get 100 lb's of tq. And, if what you are saying is true with 21's, then this holds true for 203's as they are also a "mild" bolt in cam with low to mid range tq. And, that cam is even EPA compliant. So anyone who installed 203, 21's... prior to a BB kit made the wrong decision as we should have just done a BB Kit.
You never answered my question from several posts back - will a 96" w/stock heads and stock cam out perform my lil 88" w/stock heads and 21's
Also, my bike is still an 88" - remember. Those dyno runs are two different bikes with 95" BB kits with 21's and stock heads. So tell us again how my "significantly lighter spoked rims" on my bike effect those dyno runs that you take with a "grain of salt"....
I guess this guys lost also - installing 21's when he could have used stock cams... lol
http://www.americanrider.com/output.cfm?id=1054045
OP, sorry for derailing this thread big time... Im outa here, leavin it for those more, "knowledgeable" ???
You never answered my question from several posts back - will a 96" w/stock heads and stock cam out perform my lil 88" w/stock heads and 21's
Also, my bike is still an 88" - remember. Those dyno runs are two different bikes with 95" BB kits with 21's and stock heads. So tell us again how my "significantly lighter spoked rims" on my bike effect those dyno runs that you take with a "grain of salt"....
I guess this guys lost also - installing 21's when he could have used stock cams... lol
http://www.americanrider.com/output.cfm?id=1054045
OP, sorry for derailing this thread big time... Im outa here, leavin it for those more, "knowledgeable" ???
All that money, time AND....you STILL get smoked by some knucklehead on a Hayabusa, Vmax, ZX14 in STOCK FORM. Not just from the line...handling, braking....sheesh. Oh I forgot to mention that if you live in Phoenix, in the summer where the temperature often exceeds 115 degrees...BURNT MOTOR.
OK I'm done now...I'll let the die hard "knowledgeable" Big head, big cam, more flow...solid wheels...spoked wheels...... whatever, take it from here.
Ride safe everyone!!!
#35
07-19-2009, 08:57 PM
R.I.P. BROTHER
Without actual dyno graphs supporting the above debate all the back and forth banter is just silly-ness. I personally cant see a stock Moco cam 95" will out pull a properly cammed 88". I suppose I dont put as much stock in 7 cubic inches as I do in the cam gurus at these mega motor shops.
Personally I did a mild motor as the above posted I wanted a reliable daily rider not a time bomb. My goal was in fact a simple sturdy 100/100 build. I essentially accomplished that goal falling a few HP short most likely due to my crazy high altitude in Colorado....
Now I'm considering stroking my 95" over the winter with the goal of making a strong running 103 that I will never need to touch again.
If and when I do sharing the results via Dyna sheets with the HDF crew woulkd be automatic should I decide to start a thread about it.
Anything less would be...Uncivilized!
This thread should be left to die a slow death. Too much negativity here.
Personally I did a mild motor as the above posted I wanted a reliable daily rider not a time bomb. My goal was in fact a simple sturdy 100/100 build. I essentially accomplished that goal falling a few HP short most likely due to my crazy high altitude in Colorado....
Now I'm considering stroking my 95" over the winter with the goal of making a strong running 103 that I will never need to touch again.
If and when I do sharing the results via Dyna sheets with the HDF crew woulkd be automatic should I decide to start a thread about it.
Anything less would be...Uncivilized!
This thread should be left to die a slow death. Too much negativity here.
#36
07-19-2009, 09:08 PM
Gunmetal, You have said in a couple posts that 21's are like stock cams. Then show us bikes with 95" BB kit, no headwork and stock cams that get 100 lb's of tq. And, if what you are saying is true with 21's, then this holds true for 203's as they are also a "mild" bolt in cam with low to mid range tq. And, that cam is even EPA compliant. So anyone who installed 203, 21's... prior to a BB kit made the wrong decision as we should have just done a BB Kit.
The simple fact is that if all else is equal, then a bigger engine will outperform a smaller engine.
You never answered my question from several posts back - will a 96" w/stock heads and stock cam out perform my lil 88" w/stock heads and 21's
Also, my bike is still an 88" - remember. Those dyno runs are two different bikes with 95" BB kits with 21's and stock heads. So tell us again how my "significantly lighter spoked rims" on my bike effect those dyno runs that you take with a "grain of salt"....
I guess this guys lost also - installing 21's when he could have used stock cams... lol
http://www.americanrider.com/output.cfm?id=1054045
OP, sorry for derailing this thread big time... Im outa here, leavin it for those more, "knowledgeable" ???
#37
07-19-2009, 09:10 PM
Kuma..dont think you derailed it at all...lots of facts out there and MORE opinions than anything. Me...WASTE OF MONEY!!! I love Harleys..been with them through AMF era and still to this day. Have a chopper with a 113 in it and it doesn't put out nearly the power that other members have posted. IMO the 96" as one member posted with pipes, stage 1 and tune....Great ride. 103, 110 and all that bull$hit... while it is faster...TIME BOMB. I know the flames are coming but all you see on this forum are the guys that have had their build forever, hauls *** and NO PROBLEMS!! What you don't see is the 5/1 ratio of the guys that have done the builds, and have had numerous problems. You think they are going to post what a pile it is so they can take a bunch of $hit from the "other" die hard "Big Motor" guys that retort....well if you had done this, and that and yada yada yada...PLEASE!!
All that money, time AND....you STILL get smoked by some knucklehead on a Hayabusa, Vmax, ZX14 in STOCK FORM. Not just from the line...handling, braking....sheesh. Oh I forgot to mention that if you live in Phoenix, in the summer where the temperature often exceeds 115 degrees...BURNT MOTOR.
OK I'm done now...I'll let the die hard "knowledgeable" Big head, big cam, more flow...solid wheels...spoked wheels...... whatever, take it from here.
Ride safe everyone!!!
All that money, time AND....you STILL get smoked by some knucklehead on a Hayabusa, Vmax, ZX14 in STOCK FORM. Not just from the line...handling, braking....sheesh. Oh I forgot to mention that if you live in Phoenix, in the summer where the temperature often exceeds 115 degrees...BURNT MOTOR.
OK I'm done now...I'll let the die hard "knowledgeable" Big head, big cam, more flow...solid wheels...spoked wheels...... whatever, take it from here.
Ride safe everyone!!!
I agree.
#39
07-19-2009, 09:13 PM
Without actual dyno graphs supporting the above debate all the back and forth banter is just silly-ness. I personally cant see a stock Moco cam 95" will out pull a properly cammed 88". I suppose I dont put as much stock in 7 cubic inches as I do in the cam gurus at these mega motor shops.
Personally I did a mild motor as the above posted I wanted a reliable daily rider not a time bomb. My goal was in fact a simple sturdy 100/100 build. I essentially accomplished that goal falling a few HP short most likely due to my crazy high altitude in Colorado....
Now I'm considering stroking my 95" over the winter with the goal of making a strong running 103 that I will never need to touch again.
If and when I do sharing the results via Dyna sheets with the HDF crew woulkd be automatic should I decide to start a thread about it.
Anything less would be...Uncivilized!
This thread should be left to die a slow death. Too much negativity here.
Personally I did a mild motor as the above posted I wanted a reliable daily rider not a time bomb. My goal was in fact a simple sturdy 100/100 build. I essentially accomplished that goal falling a few HP short most likely due to my crazy high altitude in Colorado....
Now I'm considering stroking my 95" over the winter with the goal of making a strong running 103 that I will never need to touch again.
If and when I do sharing the results via Dyna sheets with the HDF crew woulkd be automatic should I decide to start a thread about it.
Anything less would be...Uncivilized!
This thread should be left to die a slow death. Too much negativity here.
Locally here I know of one gentleman who had a build done by a moco shop that sold him everything under the sun, and he dyno'd it on their 250i put down 90/100 #'s, went to RR cycle using the same machine, and he barely hit 75/85 numbers. It was a decent running build, but the HD shop is known to "inflate" numbers to sell products. I take people posting dyno plots with a grain of salt other than the afr readings.
That being said, 7-9 cubes of displacement and a full point bump in static compression I feel is still a better way to go then just swapping out stock cams for another mild grindset. But whatever, people will believe what they want. No skin off my back, LOL!
#40
07-19-2009, 09:23 PM
R.I.P. BROTHER
Damn you Hammah!! You couch riding bastage!! Cheers to you as well. Hope you are getting some riding in Bro. I been working my *** off get home go to pull my turd out fer' a run and theres wind, rain, ligthning. Fvck. Bad day today.
Out of frustration I went for the new combo meal at KFC...Its simply called "Half a chicken". Now I have a horrific gut ache and still cant go ride due to the chitty weather!! Fvcked.
Fvck this stoopid thread.
Laters.
Out of frustration I went for the new combo meal at KFC...Its simply called "Half a chicken". Now I have a horrific gut ache and still cant go ride due to the chitty weather!! Fvcked.
Fvck this stoopid thread.
Laters.
Last edited by Chazmanian; 07-19-2009 at 09:25 PM.