I Am Totally Lost
#21
05-12-2009, 09:27 AM
Road Captain
Here ya go. I have posted this before and obviously no one has read it through. I found this article on the Nighrider web site. It is good advice and makes perfect sense:
Do I need to remap my ECM when installing exhaust and air cleaner upgrades to my 07 and later Harley?
NO, you do not have to do anything. You can put the mufflers/air cleaner upgrades and ride the bike without having to worry about the engine
The simple truth is the 07 and later HD's will run just fine with exhaust/air cleaner upgrades and you do not have to do anything to the ECM at all. Closed loop EFI operation uses feedback from the O2 sensor to maintain a constant AFR, even if changes are made to the exhaust and air cleaner.
The amount of information about what has to be done '07 and later Harley when installing exhaust/air cleaner upgrades has been the subject of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt). Riders, Dealerships, Parts Suppliers and Aftermarket Shops have presented old-wives tales, bad technical information, mis-information and in some cases, just plain flat lied about the capabilities of the Delphi closed loop ECMs on these bikes.
Most people hold on to their old ideas about what was required for the early EFI ECM's. Shops and Dealerships never bothered to learn new the new technology. Marketing information did nothing to dispel the differences between the old and new bikes. Sales staff did not know the difference or mis-represented what was required on the new bikes.
There is more independent proof that you do not need to remap the HD EFI when installing mufflers. The March 2009 (page 66) CycleWorld dyno tested a set of slip-on mufflers on an '09 FLH, getting 5% more HP and 9% more torque on a "bone-stock, including EFI mapping" bike. Cycle World is not known as a big Harley cheerleader, so it would be a reasonable assumption that they are not going to do any special favors for MOCO.
Th CW information is right in line with what HD published in the Fall 2006 Enthusiast Magazine showing a 3% HP and 7% torque increase with slightly more restrictive mufflers and air cleaner kit. American Iron Magazine has also published similar articles about "no remap" upgrades involving exhaust/air cleaner changes.
How much information has to be presented to Harley Riders that remapping of the ECM is not required for exhaust/air cleaner upgrades for closed loop bikes? When it can be shown that much of the "gain" in power for bikes remapped with expensive tuning software and piggyback controllers would have occurred without spending $400-$1000, riders need to start thinking about what they are really trying to accomplish on their bikes rather than blindly following the "you must remap just to add exhaust/ac" advice that has been discredited.
Do I need to remap my ECM when installing exhaust and air cleaner upgrades to my 07 and later Harley?
NO, you do not have to do anything. You can put the mufflers/air cleaner upgrades and ride the bike without having to worry about the engine
The simple truth is the 07 and later HD's will run just fine with exhaust/air cleaner upgrades and you do not have to do anything to the ECM at all. Closed loop EFI operation uses feedback from the O2 sensor to maintain a constant AFR, even if changes are made to the exhaust and air cleaner.
The amount of information about what has to be done '07 and later Harley when installing exhaust/air cleaner upgrades has been the subject of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt). Riders, Dealerships, Parts Suppliers and Aftermarket Shops have presented old-wives tales, bad technical information, mis-information and in some cases, just plain flat lied about the capabilities of the Delphi closed loop ECMs on these bikes.
Most people hold on to their old ideas about what was required for the early EFI ECM's. Shops and Dealerships never bothered to learn new the new technology. Marketing information did nothing to dispel the differences between the old and new bikes. Sales staff did not know the difference or mis-represented what was required on the new bikes.
There is more independent proof that you do not need to remap the HD EFI when installing mufflers. The March 2009 (page 66) CycleWorld dyno tested a set of slip-on mufflers on an '09 FLH, getting 5% more HP and 9% more torque on a "bone-stock, including EFI mapping" bike. Cycle World is not known as a big Harley cheerleader, so it would be a reasonable assumption that they are not going to do any special favors for MOCO.
Th CW information is right in line with what HD published in the Fall 2006 Enthusiast Magazine showing a 3% HP and 7% torque increase with slightly more restrictive mufflers and air cleaner kit. American Iron Magazine has also published similar articles about "no remap" upgrades involving exhaust/air cleaner changes.
How much information has to be presented to Harley Riders that remapping of the ECM is not required for exhaust/air cleaner upgrades for closed loop bikes? When it can be shown that much of the "gain" in power for bikes remapped with expensive tuning software and piggyback controllers would have occurred without spending $400-$1000, riders need to start thinking about what they are really trying to accomplish on their bikes rather than blindly following the "you must remap just to add exhaust/ac" advice that has been discredited.
So with this being said, If I just want to install a V & H big radius 2 to 1 on my 07 deuce and do nothing else, it will learn that there is more exhaust air flow and adjust itself? If so, that is great because I don't want to get into all the other stuff right now, just want a pipe. I would probably do a full stage one in the future, but just want the pipe for now to keep wifey happy about not sinking too much mula into the bike. plus I can install the pipe myself, but would need to pay someone for a remap.
#22
05-12-2009, 10:13 AM
Road Captain
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#23
05-12-2009, 10:16 AM
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There is more independent proof that you do not need to remap the HD EFI when installing mufflers. The March 2009 (page 66) CycleWorld dyno tested a set of slip-on mufflers on an '09 FLH, getting 5% more HP and 9% more torque on a "bone-stock, including EFI mapping" bike. Cycle World is not known as a big Harley cheerleader, so it would be a reasonable assumption that they are not going to do any special favors for MOCO.
Th CW information is right in line with what HD published in the Fall 2006 Enthusiast Magazine showing a 3% HP and 7% torque increase with slightly more restrictive mufflers and air cleaner kit. American Iron Magazine has also published similar articles about "no remap" upgrades involving exhaust/air cleaner changes.
Th CW information is right in line with what HD published in the Fall 2006 Enthusiast Magazine showing a 3% HP and 7% torque increase with slightly more restrictive mufflers and air cleaner kit. American Iron Magazine has also published similar articles about "no remap" upgrades involving exhaust/air cleaner changes.
from what i have read on the subject is that the delphi efi system can only adjust from its baseline 20%..that is 10% over the baseline and 10% under the baseline..
if you are adding a set of pipes, and a high flow air box (not just a k&n filter, the stock airbox is still very restrictive with any filter) you could easily need more then a 10% adjustment from the admittedly lean stock basline..
i admit i am no expert in the subject.. however i have felt a stock ecm with stg 1 versus a dyno'd stg 1, and there is no comparison.. my buddy ran stage one with no map adjustments for a few months.. he got the powercommander III and it was a new bike.. heck, i noticed a big difference from the canned map in the pc v on my xbones versus after dyno..
would the stock ecm with stg 1 burn the bike up? i have no idea - will it run better with a efi tune - ABSOLUTELY
Last edited by jasperpso; 05-12-2009 at 10:23 AM.
#24
05-12-2009, 11:20 AM
Road Warrior
as many have stated already:
1) if you are just adding the rush slip-ons you will not need to do anything else, and it should not negatively affect your performance, you might actually gain 2-3 hp
2) you might experience more deceleration popping/backfiring from your exhaust, that is not really worth worrying about...however you might personally not like it at that moment you will have to do more.
3) if you want to improve performance as well as sound at that moment you will at the least need to change your air intake to a high airflow...there are numerous starting with the Screaming eagle and going through every aftermarket company.
4) if you change your airflow, you will need to change the settings to your ECM .. a)either download from HD or b) get a piggy back system like PowerCommander (III or V), thundermax and so forth or c) get the SERT installed....then you will need to get the right map or have the bike dyno tuned.
to note: none of this is anything huge...a bit of cost and time.
also to note: Most dealers will always tell you you need to change the air intake when you change the pipes, mostly cause they want the work and make more money, partly cause well if you change them you might as well do it right(er) and get the air intake upgraded and the ECM to gain some performance.
1) if you are just adding the rush slip-ons you will not need to do anything else, and it should not negatively affect your performance, you might actually gain 2-3 hp
2) you might experience more deceleration popping/backfiring from your exhaust, that is not really worth worrying about...however you might personally not like it at that moment you will have to do more.
3) if you want to improve performance as well as sound at that moment you will at the least need to change your air intake to a high airflow...there are numerous starting with the Screaming eagle and going through every aftermarket company.
4) if you change your airflow, you will need to change the settings to your ECM .. a)either download from HD or b) get a piggy back system like PowerCommander (III or V), thundermax and so forth or c) get the SERT installed....then you will need to get the right map or have the bike dyno tuned.
to note: none of this is anything huge...a bit of cost and time.
also to note: Most dealers will always tell you you need to change the air intake when you change the pipes, mostly cause they want the work and make more money, partly cause well if you change them you might as well do it right(er) and get the air intake upgraded and the ECM to gain some performance.
#25
05-12-2009, 12:09 PM
Just a bit louder
I went through the same decision process about one year ago. I wanted to make my 08 ST Custom just a bit deeper and louder. I searched and read everything I could find on the net, and spoke to 5 mechanics from 2 HD shops and one indpendent shop.
Right or wrong, here are the conclusions I reached:
After all that, I ended up going with 1.75s, a new filter, and PowerCommanderIII. Ended up with a good sound. Definetly louder and deeper than stock. Plenty loud enough for me. But not the deep low rumbling sound you would get with a full big bore tuned pipes. Took me less than 3 hours to install everything, and I'm more white collar than blue collar in my mechanical skills.
I also tried to monitor the temp (using the HD dip stick guage). Keeping a watch on air temp, riding style, duration of ride, stop-in-go, etc... I beleive my bike, on the high end, now runs maybe 10 degrees cooler. (though admittedly, very unscientific)
And, finally - there was no consensus on which tuner to use (RaceTuner vs. PowerCommander). Even some of the HD mechanics thought the PC was the better way to go.
Hope this helps... Have fun !!! Jim
Right or wrong, here are the conclusions I reached:
- The new hogs run lean and hot (without question). This was necessary to pass stricter emissions regs. Too hot? Maybe not, but hotter than most mechanics would like.
- If money were no object, the mechanics I spoke with generally agree, they would always retune a stock bike to make it more rich and hence run cooler.
- 1.75" Rush Slipons, will increase air flow, and decrease backpressure, just a bit... but not enough to worry about. In other words no real problem adding them. Recognzing the caveat in point 1 above.
- Opinion was mixed with 2.0" Rush Slipons. About half of the opinions said they wouldn't go with the 2.0... without also adding a less restricted airflow and tuner. Even those that thought it would be OK, were not real enthusiastic with just adding 2.0s.
After all that, I ended up going with 1.75s, a new filter, and PowerCommanderIII. Ended up with a good sound. Definetly louder and deeper than stock. Plenty loud enough for me. But not the deep low rumbling sound you would get with a full big bore tuned pipes. Took me less than 3 hours to install everything, and I'm more white collar than blue collar in my mechanical skills.
I also tried to monitor the temp (using the HD dip stick guage). Keeping a watch on air temp, riding style, duration of ride, stop-in-go, etc... I beleive my bike, on the high end, now runs maybe 10 degrees cooler. (though admittedly, very unscientific)
And, finally - there was no consensus on which tuner to use (RaceTuner vs. PowerCommander). Even some of the HD mechanics thought the PC was the better way to go.
Hope this helps... Have fun !!! Jim
#26
05-12-2009, 09:31 PM
I went through the same decision process about one year ago. I wanted to make my 08 ST Custom just a bit deeper and louder. I searched and read everything I could find on the net, and spoke to 5 mechanics from 2 HD shops and one indpendent shop.
Right or wrong, here are the conclusions I reached:
After all that, I ended up going with 1.75s, a new filter, and PowerCommanderIII. Ended up with a good sound. Definetly louder and deeper than stock. Plenty loud enough for me. But not the deep low rumbling sound you would get with a full big bore tuned pipes. Took me less than 3 hours to install everything, and I'm more white collar than blue collar in my mechanical skills.
I also tried to monitor the temp (using the HD dip stick guage). Keeping a watch on air temp, riding style, duration of ride, stop-in-go, etc... I beleive my bike, on the high end, now runs maybe 10 degrees cooler. (though admittedly, very unscientific)
And, finally - there was no consensus on which tuner to use (RaceTuner vs. PowerCommander). Even some of the HD mechanics thought the PC was the better way to go.
Hope this helps... Have fun !!! Jim
Right or wrong, here are the conclusions I reached:
- The new hogs run lean and hot (without question). This was necessary to pass stricter emissions regs. Too hot? Maybe not, but hotter than most mechanics would like.
- If money were no object, the mechanics I spoke with generally agree, they would always retune a stock bike to make it more rich and hence run cooler.
- 1.75" Rush Slipons, will increase air flow, and decrease backpressure, just a bit... but not enough to worry about. In other words no real problem adding them. Recognzing the caveat in point 1 above.
- Opinion was mixed with 2.0" Rush Slipons. About half of the opinions said they wouldn't go with the 2.0... without also adding a less restricted airflow and tuner. Even those that thought it would be OK, were not real enthusiastic with just adding 2.0s.
After all that, I ended up going with 1.75s, a new filter, and PowerCommanderIII. Ended up with a good sound. Definetly louder and deeper than stock. Plenty loud enough for me. But not the deep low rumbling sound you would get with a full big bore tuned pipes. Took me less than 3 hours to install everything, and I'm more white collar than blue collar in my mechanical skills.
I also tried to monitor the temp (using the HD dip stick guage). Keeping a watch on air temp, riding style, duration of ride, stop-in-go, etc... I beleive my bike, on the high end, now runs maybe 10 degrees cooler. (though admittedly, very unscientific)
And, finally - there was no consensus on which tuner to use (RaceTuner vs. PowerCommander). Even some of the HD mechanics thought the PC was the better way to go.
Hope this helps... Have fun !!! Jim
Mine went from 63.99 hp to 75.41 and 78.16 to 87.36 tq. I did rush slip ons and pc lll and big sucker. Stock was done at 91 degrees and the dyno was done at 68.
#27
05-12-2009, 11:14 PM
Now I didn't throw either of my bikes on a dyno or anything but my 06 sporty (carb) and my 07 Heritage (EFI) have both run great on 2" Rush mufflers and nothing else. I felt the throttle response tighten up on the Heritage after putting them on and now with them and the XiED on, it runs way cooler and and has a lot more snap than stock. I was told to stay away from the pointless HD stage 1 flash and that ridiculous oil cooler.
#29
05-20-2009, 04:11 PM
Cruiser
