Advice for 95 inch engine upgrades
#1
04-07-2009, 11:23 PM
Advice for 95 inch engine upgrades
I've got a 2005 Anniversary Edition Fatboy that came fron the factory with the 95 inch motor. The guy I purchased it from did the following mods: SE 211 cam, SE Heavy breather, Power Commander, and Vance & Hines Bid Radius 2 into 2 exhaust. The bike dynos at 90 hp and 92 ft lbs of torque. I've been reading through quite a few posts and it seems the next logical step is headwork. It has been suggested to me that I need to change the cam and or pistons? I'm not opposed to spending some $$ but I don't want to spend if not necessary. Any advice would be most appreciated.
chazmanian, what do you think?
chazmanian, what do you think?
Last edited by harleyheaven; 04-09-2009 at 12:40 PM.
#2
04-08-2009, 09:05 AM
The single easiest change with your setup would be to change out the pipes, the BR are a short 2 - 2 pipe and will limit your HP no matter what else you do, going to at 2 - 1 like the propipe, ect will make a great deal of difference in being able to get it tuned to it potential. If you really want to stay with a 2 -2 look the V & H BSS have the power chamber which helps a little in performance.
Heads will always add to your setup, but if you dont let it get out correctly you wont get the max benefits.
Heads will always add to your setup, but if you dont let it get out correctly you wont get the max benefits.
#3
04-08-2009, 09:44 AM
What is it about the performance you do not like or want more of? Agreed about a 2n1 - will increase tq for sure and provide for a better tune.
A different cam will also change the power band. Not sure what the power curve is on 211's? Why would you need to change out pistons unless they have a lot of miles or leak? With the 95", the right cam and pipe you will get 100 lbs tq. You may get it with just the 2n1.
A different cam will also change the power band. Not sure what the power curve is on 211's? Why would you need to change out pistons unless they have a lot of miles or leak? With the 95", the right cam and pipe you will get 100 lbs tq. You may get it with just the 2n1.
#4
04-08-2009, 10:22 AM
I have the SE 204 in my bike and I know that hD reccommends the SE 203 for the 95 ci and they even have a listing in the catalog for the 2005 Annv cam upgrade and it is the SE 203.
So just changing out the pipe and maybe the cams would get you what you are looking for?
There are a lot of very experienced guys on this forum that Im sure can give you more complete info and actual experience.
#5
04-08-2009, 12:48 PM
R.I.P. BROTHER
I've got a 2005 Anniversary Edition Fatboy that came fron the factory with the 95 inch motor. The guy I purchased it from did the following mods: SE 211 cam, SE Heavy breather, Power Commander, and Vance & Hines Bid Radius 2 into 2 exhaust. The bike dynos at 90 hp and 92 ft lbs of torque. I've been reading through quite a few posts and it seems the next logical step is headwork. It has been suggested to me that I need to change the cam and or pistons? I'm not opposed to spending some $$ but I don't want to spend if not necessary. Any advice would be most appreciated.
211's dont like stock compression. You need some headwork.
My bike is essentially the identicle build as yours but with milled and ported heads, hand matched rings, and a 3 angle valve job with a set of Big Shot Staggered pipes.
The bike dynoed at 93HP and 104TQ. Thats uncorrected and I'm at 6000 feet above sea level. Add 10% to the numbers if you are at sea-level or 100HP and 115TQ. The Dynojet altitude calculator claims the correction for mt high altitude is 107HP and 119TQ. I dont belive that but 10% would be a realistic estimate as we lose 10-15% power up here in the clouds!!
Before the heads and closer fitting rings were dome the bike was at 82Hp and 89TQ. So if you do the math there? It was about the same as yours is now cept' the Big Shot Staggereds pipes do a bit better on TQ due to the powerchamber! So having the heads milled got me 13Hp and 15TQ. Add that to what you got now and you will be quite pleased.
Having the heads ported and milled alnog with a set of S&S adjustable pushrods and hand matching those rings bumped my comp up a good bit and made the 211 cams work way better. It copst me $850-900 bucks.
A better 2-1 pipe like a pro-pipe or something along those lines would help even more. By running those 211's on stock compression you are leaving a slew of money on the table.
Compression is the trick with 211's! The SE catalog even clearly states the 211's are a cam designed with higher than stock compression bigger bore builds.
Last edited by Chazmanian; 04-08-2009 at 12:57 PM.
#6
04-08-2009, 01:53 PM
Thanks guys this is great information!
The bike had Big Shot Staggers 2 into 2 on it when I purchased it and it dynoed at 88hp and 96 ft lbs of torque. When I changed to the Big Radius 2 into 2 I added some Original Thunder Monster Baffles for torque.
Chazmanian, thanks for the info and dyno sheet this really helps alot. I was thinkng along these lines but it seemed evryone I talked to wanted to change the cam and or pistons. The combination we have doesn't seem to be very popular. I spoke with one local mechanic that suggested heads and Andrews 37 cam that would produce around 115 hp and 110 torque based on a recent build. He said if I stayed with the 211 cam that the head would work not be as agressive but could possibly see similar numbers. No one seems to have experience with the 211 cam, at least no one I've found yet.
The bike had Big Shot Staggers 2 into 2 on it when I purchased it and it dynoed at 88hp and 96 ft lbs of torque. When I changed to the Big Radius 2 into 2 I added some Original Thunder Monster Baffles for torque.
Chazmanian, thanks for the info and dyno sheet this really helps alot. I was thinkng along these lines but it seemed evryone I talked to wanted to change the cam and or pistons. The combination we have doesn't seem to be very popular. I spoke with one local mechanic that suggested heads and Andrews 37 cam that would produce around 115 hp and 110 torque based on a recent build. He said if I stayed with the 211 cam that the head would work not be as agressive but could possibly see similar numbers. No one seems to have experience with the 211 cam, at least no one I've found yet.
#7
04-08-2009, 02:24 PM
R.I.P. BROTHER
Thanks guys this is great information!
The bike had Big Shot Staggers 2 into 2 on it when I purchased it and it dynoed at 88hp and 96 ft lbs of torque. When I changed to the Big Radius 2 into 2 I added some Original Thunder Monster Baffles for torque.
Chazmanian, thanks for the info and dyno sheet this really helps alot. I was thinkng along these lines but it seemed evryone I talked to wanted to change the cam and or pistons. The combination we have doesn't seem to be very popular. I spoke with one local mechanic that suggested heads and Andrews 37 cam that would produce around 115 hp and 110 torque based on a recent build. He said if I stayed with the 211 cam that the head would work not be as agressive but could possibly see similar numbers. No one seems to have experience with the 211 cam, at least no one I've found yet.
The bike had Big Shot Staggers 2 into 2 on it when I purchased it and it dynoed at 88hp and 96 ft lbs of torque. When I changed to the Big Radius 2 into 2 I added some Original Thunder Monster Baffles for torque.
Chazmanian, thanks for the info and dyno sheet this really helps alot. I was thinkng along these lines but it seemed evryone I talked to wanted to change the cam and or pistons. The combination we have doesn't seem to be very popular. I spoke with one local mechanic that suggested heads and Andrews 37 cam that would produce around 115 hp and 110 torque based on a recent build. He said if I stayed with the 211 cam that the head would work not be as agressive but could possibly see similar numbers. No one seems to have experience with the 211 cam, at least no one I've found yet.
If you have a mechanic that is telling you a basic stage 2 bike with a set of Andrews cams is gonna lay down 115HP and 110TQ? Run like hell.
The proof is in the puddin'. 211's work. But they must have headwork to work. They gotta have compression.
Get into a fire breathing stage 3 build on your big radius 2-2's you may run into some other issues. Build a stage 3 100+ on both ends bike and you will end up on a set of BR without any baffles at all or the bike will run and dyno as if its wet sumping. Your motor wont be able to breathe very well outta those BR's if they are baffled.
Look at this dyno run sheet.
Ok so Green lines are a set of baffled Big Shot Standards on a stage 3 build. The bike is mimicking a wet sump issue and is making a whopping 59Hp and 89Tq.
Now look at the red lines these are the same standard big shots with the baffles removed. No more mimicking of a sumping issue. Making 85/87 Way too loud. Not much Tq and way to illegal to deal with.
Now look at the blue lines which is a set of Big Shots Staggereds with the larger diameter exit pipe and powerchamber did with the baffles 88/101.
Hmmmm....Didnt even try removing the baffles from the staggereds. Bike tuned out at 93-104. The 2-2's are leaving money on the table. They essentially suck. The BR has no powerchamber and no stepped pipe design. Its a pipe designed to look and sound cool not perform. Its essentially an Evo pipe!
Another guy in the softail dyno section posted a radical built 117 stroker doing huge numbers thru a set of Big radius pipes. I immediately knew that he wasnt running any baffles in those pipes and asked him about it. He replied..."No Baffles".
The thought of you actually losing power from the Big Shot staggereds is confusing me. The BSS is the only 2-2 pipe V&H builds with any thought of performance. Is this a tuning issue?
Feel lucky that your BR's are letting you do 90's on both ends. Build that motor much more and you will end up with open pipes though!!
2-1 pipes are the answer when doing these stage 3 bikes. No builder worth his salt would reccomend any of the V&H 2-2 pipes on his stage 3 build. They are really that bad. I got my staggereds for less than $400 and like the way they sound, look and they allowed me to run baffles and still pull off decent numbers. Per the V&H tech line "If you are built or building....Buy our 2-1 Pro-Pipe" "The only pipe we build that will work baffled on a built motor is the BSS".
Take it for what its worth!
Now go get some compression...And stop shifting so early. We gots 211's. Hold er' wide open a lil' bit longer!!!
These runs the bike wasnt tuned for each scenario. It had a generic stage 2 download at the time. Add 10-15% to these numbers to reflect what it would be doing were it not more than a mile above sea-level or 6000 feet.
Last edited by Chazmanian; 04-08-2009 at 02:30 PM.
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#8
04-08-2009, 08:47 PM
Yea, I know the pipes are hurting me. That being said they look and sound great! I'm not looking to do a radical build only what can be done with what I have. So far the ones I've talked to seem to think the 211 makes it power in higher RPM's and the cam switch would make power in the 2200-5200 range. Any suggestions on the head work, such as specs? I talked to a local wrench this evening and he suggested stage 2 heads from T Man Performance with the following specs:
Step up to a mark increase in performance with T-Man's Street Enhancer ported heads. Increased valves with high lift springs and the legendary TR porting make this a a proven Street Eliminator.
Features 1.9" Intake with 1.610" Exhaust Precision 5 angle cut on Intake valve and Multi-angle Exhaust cut that provides optimal flow made to TR's specs. Precision ported CNC Intake and Exhaust port with hand finished for maximum performance. Stock chamber size is utilized for comparability with Flat-Top pistons making this upgrade an easy addition for stock to performance engine configurations.
Link: http://www.tmanperformance.com/heads.htm
He suggested installing these heads to see what my set up will do and if the performance isn't where I want come back and change the cam to T Man's TR-650G cam. This way I don't spend money on the cam swap unless my 211 doesn't perform like I want. I even talked to T Man today and he doesn't have any experience with the 211. I understand people will recommend what they have experience with. I really appreciate your responses and any recommendations on the head work would be great. If the headwork would get me over 100/100 I wolud be satisfied.
Step up to a mark increase in performance with T-Man's Street Enhancer ported heads. Increased valves with high lift springs and the legendary TR porting make this a a proven Street Eliminator.
Features 1.9" Intake with 1.610" Exhaust Precision 5 angle cut on Intake valve and Multi-angle Exhaust cut that provides optimal flow made to TR's specs. Precision ported CNC Intake and Exhaust port with hand finished for maximum performance. Stock chamber size is utilized for comparability with Flat-Top pistons making this upgrade an easy addition for stock to performance engine configurations.
Link: http://www.tmanperformance.com/heads.htm
He suggested installing these heads to see what my set up will do and if the performance isn't where I want come back and change the cam to T Man's TR-650G cam. This way I don't spend money on the cam swap unless my 211 doesn't perform like I want. I even talked to T Man today and he doesn't have any experience with the 211. I understand people will recommend what they have experience with. I really appreciate your responses and any recommendations on the head work would be great. If the headwork would get me over 100/100 I wolud be satisfied.
Try D&D Fatcats