Hello all, I am interested in buying a 1970 FL, I asked the current owner if it was matching frame and engine numbers. He told be he had to stamp a frame number into the frame for rego purposes !!! Makes me think the frame is either stolen or earlier than 1970. From photo's the bike looks quite original, so I'm wondering if there was a crossover period from 1969 to 1970 that frames didn't have a vin boss yet,(left over 69 frames etc) but were sold as a 1970 with a cone motor? How can I identify this frame and what year it actually is? Sorry I don't have any pics yet.. Thanks

 

HD started stamping the VIN on the frame neck in 1970. But there should be other casting markings that identify the year of the frame, at least within a couple of years.

If the VIN boss looks unmodified (not ground off), then I'd guess its an earlier frame. But it would be helpful to post a few pictures.

Paul

 

Owner-stamped VIN would be a non-starter for me.

 

To be honest I have seen owners stamp VIN numbers in frames over here in Australia. Our registration authority didn't understand early Harley's don't have a frame number, so they would issue a VP number and that becomes the VIN. He is open about stamping the frame for registration purposes, I don't like what he has done and it definatly devalues the bike but I really want to determine why his bike didn't have a VIN in the first place. So I would really like to know is if during the early production of frames in 1970 whether some frame came with no VIN boss/number? Or is this frame an earlier frame, if so how do I identify it?

 

Stamping ya motor number on a frame is common practice here in England with pre 70 Frames,
the DVLA here tell you to do so if on an early bike,
& IF you don't want to stamp it yourself, they will arrange to come & stamp a 17 didgit VIN number issued by them, which is internationally recognised as an official VIN,.... Americans here are under harder Laws than those of us of the Empire.

 

1970 frames have the VIN # on the neck and it must match the VN # on the motor case. If he stamped his own number, it is NOT the original frame. No crossover etc. issues from the factory, 1970 bikes had the VIN # on the frame. There are no stories about early 70 bikes didn't have it etc, any story like that is total BS.

Pictures would help but I think you need to start walking away from this one, good luck.

 

Thank you all for you advice, I will at least get some photo's of the bike headstock and rear castings just to get an idea of what is going on.
Cheers

 

Ask him. And what number did he stamp on the frame? Do you mean he used the engine number? Or was he given a VP number to use on the frame?

Late-69 Shovel frames had a VIN boss (originally unstamped).
Most 70–71 Shovel frames had a VIN boss and obviously it was stamped as original.
But some 70–71 Shovel frames had no VIN boss. However, they did have a VIN and it was on the R-H side of the steering head but it was stamped further forward than normal.

Around late-68 the steering head forging number became 47591-35A. (Notice it ends with 35A, not just 35.) Other side of the steering head may have a forging hallmark and a forging die number.

BT swingarm frames had a steering head lock for 58–68. Late-68s also had an unmachined boss in readiness for a padlock hole which was introduced as of 69 models. For 69-later Shovels the steering head lock boss remained although it was not machined.

Left side of a Shovel steering head had an additional original component identifying number for 66–69. For example D1234. It's often referred to as a security code or anti-theft number and it was also on some, but not all, 70 Shovel frames even though 70 models had a VIN. The additional ID is stamped on but the characters are only about 1/8" tall and sometimes not easy to see. They may be impossible to read if a frame has been powdercoated.

For BT swingarm frames 65–72 both upper rear forgings should have 47645-65. (Around 73 it changed to 47645-65Y and sometimes it was applied as 47645-65-Y.)

For BT swingarm frames 58 thru about early-70 the lower left rear forging number was 47653-58. Around mid/later-70 it changed to 47654 65. I do not know why the suffix was 65 as opposed to 70 but that is what happened. About mid-73 the forging number became 47654-73. At some later stage it changed to 47654-73A.

Lower R-H rear forging number may be 47651-58 which was used for BT swingarm frames 58 thru early-73. About mid-73 it became 47652-73.

Around mid/later-68 the factory added a gusset plate to the front of the left rear downtube. The gusset was also available as repair part #47261-68 for frames back thru 58. Some people even made their own.

Something else to check is the shape of the top engine mount and its bolt hole. If it looks like this it is early-69 or earlier.







But around mid-69 it changed to this.







On the R-H side of the top mount you may find a date code but to see it the R-H tank may need to be removed or at least loosened. Ask the owner if he knows what it is.
Eric

 

Hey guy's so the bike turned out to be a real swap meet special, genny shovel tins(may or may not be oem), genny shovel swingarm and front end, wheels etc, 1973 frame with the numbers ground off, 1979 bottom end with 1981 heads. Thanks to all for the very useful information, looks like the hunt continues...

 

Smart man. HD used specific number and letter sizes for stamping the early year frames when they started doing it, even went so far as to lean certain characters different ways and stamp deeper on some than others. Is not something the typical backyard gomer would know when they decide to play.