I see what you mean. What he did is correct, as going in the same direction would not remove the clatter. It's primary cause is the helical cut with the shafts ramping with the power pulses. By going the opposite way it greatly reduces this effect, Clatter is not caused by the spur cut 5th but with the larger gear on the primary shaft and the smaller on the secondary the power pulses are magnified to the secondary. This would be the worst case for the ramp effect and rebound. Simple fix for this whole mess is to go spur all the way through. Problem solved. I firmly believe if you put a 5th helical gear set in there in the same direction as the rest, you couldn't stand the mega clatter. Maybe they did at first and went to straight to try and fix it. Baker went one more step and reversed it to make it quiet. Don't buy that 5th straight gear for passing. What about powershifting it through 2nd 3rd and 4th. If you can't break those you won't break 5th passing a car. Sometimes you have to read between the MoCo lines of bs. The truth is out there.
Ron

 

Buttman:

Couldn't agree more with you. I knowthat you can find an issue with any bike, but for that kind of money for a new Hog, I'd prefer to buy a used '06 or older. Guess I'll have to keep my eyes open, but here in the pacific northwest where I live, it seems that demand exceeds supply on used bikes and they are quite spendy. Maybe I'll have to bid on an Ebay bike and be forced to ride it home

 

Interesting post. One question .............. have you any ideas on justhowthe IDS reduces/eliminates the clatter? Your ideas were very clear but you used heli gear sets on the main/counter shaftsas an example. I'm not sure if I follow you with the spur cut 5th gears .... is the problem the large(r) driving gear on the mainshaft (5th)? Very well written post in my opinion.

 

Helicals are still in the picture for drive even though 5th is spur. Notice the connection from secondary to the sprocket gear.From what I see, this is where Baker reverse helical does the cancelling effect when in fifth. In sixth there is no transmission to speak of in the picture as it's direct. If you have clatter in sixth, then you really have a problem. To me the larger primary 5th will amplify the impact problems. The IDS takes up the shock by giving it a cushion and reducing these impact loads to the gears, the same way the comp does at the engine, which is not up to the task. Look at it as a second comp in the system. Don't matter if it's at the start or end of drivetrain as the result will be the same.
Ron

 

What is really frustrating to me is the fact that a buddy of mine did the 110 C.I. upgrade to his brand new 2008 Street Glide and had the exhaust changedand F.I. reprogrammed.

The heat from this engine is so bad that his wife cannot stand to ride with him.

I do not know if the IDS is a band aid to a more sinister problem, or a simple miracle cure. I am hesitant to take $20,000 plus and drop it on a bike that will have tranny problems in the long run, andcook my passenger and I at the same time.

I really like the 08 Ultras. The colors, new front suspension, Brembo brakes and ABS are all very desirable. The tranny questions and heat issues are not. The CVO bikes are even more troublesome, crank runout and leaking cylinders make a CVO Ultra out of the purchase option.

The 88's are great engines, the 5 speed trannies are touble and noise free. A simple gear drive and cam change will make the 88 fly.

My 03 FXD with stock 88 C.I. motor and heads, stock re-jetted CV carb,SuperTrapp SuperMegs 2:1 exhaust, with the S&S cam gear drive and Andrew's TW-37G cams produced thesedyno results.



[IMG]local://upfiles/20717/D772E608EA024D53AF664F64C3DA07DE.jpg[/IMG]

 

Heat.... Yes that is the other problem with the bike. One That I have to live with. This is the Hottest bike I have ever owned. If you get stuck in traffic on a hot day, the bike is unbearable. If you are two up, the rider is in for a sauna. Have to wear boots as the heat will burn the rider when it is hot. The up side to this problem is I have ridden the bike when it was in the high 30's and if you add some face protection, it is easy to keep yourself warm! So, I avoid the crowds in the summer and look for the open roads.

 

Heat was definitely a problem at first with my 07 Street Glide. The Power Commander, Rineharts,Stage 1 air filter made my 96" run just as cool as my 03 Road King with DealerRemap, rineharts,stage 1 air filter. I absolutely can not tell the difference in heat between the two bikes, neither can the wife. Although the dealer remap on the 88" kept highway milage around 46 and the Power Commander on the 96" put gas milage around 40. Its worth it for the no heat problem.
We live in good ole hotSouth.

 

Thank you.

Yes, I have an idea on just how the IDS reduces the clatter.

First, I want to say that I don't agree with Baker's decision to reverse the helix. I would have had the countershaft 5th and output "fight" each other so it wouldn't "hit" so hard from one end to the other when power flow changes direction through it.

What they did was the equivalent in 120 VAC service of sending a separate, full-current-carrying, neutral wire to each of two loads when they could have been balanced with a single neutral wire that would only carry current whenever there was a difference between them. If both loads are the same, the neutral wire carries no current, (the countershaft itself being the neutral wire(s)) and at most the neutral carries only the current of one of them. With separate neutrals, instead of zero neutral wire heat at dual full loads you'll have twice the wire heat running back to the panel.

I think the noise arises in 5th gear for two reasons. First is simply because the spur gears are plain noisier, no matter how carefully they're made, compared to the helical-cut gears (assuming equal fabrication care), which actually slide in and out of mesh. I suppose sloppily-made helicals would be noisier than meticulously-made spurs, but we can probably agree that reasonable care was taken with both in our case, so in comparison to 5th (and 1st, of course) the rest just don't get our attention much.

The second reason is because while in 5th there's no balancing of thrust on the countershaft, for one thing, and since there's no side-thrust on the driving gear, it won't "ride" snug to one side or the other of its space on the mainshaft, so perhaps it walks side-to-side a bit there (I don't know first-hand how much sideplay it has that way).

So we've got the opportunity for it to make a different noise than the other gears which "freewheel" when not in service.

The IDS softens each impulse that reaches it, spreading the shock out over a longer time-frame. Think of a sawthooth waveform being transformed into more of a sine wave. Since the noises being made by the gears mating and the shafts thrusting are directly in proportion to the loads passing through the gears, the softer load peaks with the IDS will reduce those effects.

Without it I believe there's also more of a tendency to have the harder impulse reflect back toward its origin. When something like that happens, there'll be moments of slack when the wave coming back meets one of the same strength but opposite polarity going forward, and moments of increased energy where the waves are in sync, complementing each other.

Visualize the complex waveforms which develop when you toss a pebble into still water and the wave expands circularly, then hits a concrete wall, bouncing back again. Where the ripples meet coming and going; visualize that. Now, put a layer of open-cell foam on the wall and visualize what will happen with the reflected waves. They'll be much subdued and all the little local disturbances will be smoother. Maybe it would be safe enough to compare the IDS to that layer of foam.

Also part of the noise is that conventional drive chains are not smooth operators. The primary is such a critter. The effect is lessened the larger the pitch diameter of the sprocket in relation to the pitch of the chain. The pitch diameter (the diameter through which the centers of the chain link pivots pass) actually is effectively two sizes at the points where the chain is picked up and fed off the spr

 

[quote]ORIGINAL: glens

Thank you.

Yes, I have an idea on just how the IDS reduces the clatter.

First, I want to say that I don't agree with Baker's decision to reverse the helix. I would have had the countershaft 5th and output "fight" each other so it wouldn't "hit" so hard from one end to the other when power flow changes direction through it.

What they did was the equivalent in 120 VAC service of sending a separate, full-current-carrying, neutral wire to each of two loads when they could have been balanced with a single neutral wire that would only carry current whenever there was a difference between them. If both loads are the same, the neutral wire carries no current, (the countershaft itself being the neutral wire(s)) and at most the neutral carries only the current of one of them. With separate neutrals, instead of zero neutral wire heat at dual full loads you'll have twice the wire heat running back to the panel.

I think the noise arises in 5th gear for two reasons. First is simply because the spur gears are plain noisier, no matter how carefully they're made, compared to the helical-cut gears (assuming equal fabrication care), which actually slide in and out of mesh. I suppose sloppily-made helicals would be noisier than meticulously-made spurs, but we can probably agree that reasonable care was taken with both in our case, so in comparison to 5th (and 1st, of course) the rest just don't get our attention much.

The second reason is because while in 5th there's no balancing of thrust on the countershaft, for one thing, and since there's no side-thrust on the driving gear, it won't "ride" snug to one side or the other of its space on the mainshaft, so perhaps it walks side-to-side a bit there (I don't know first-hand how much sideplay it has that way).

So we've got the opportunity for it to make a different noise than the other gears which "freewheel" when not in service.

The IDS softens each impulse that reaches it, spreading the shock out over a longer time-frame. Think of a sawthooth waveform being transformed into more of a sine wave. Since the noises being made by the gears mating and the shafts thrusting are directly in proportion to the loads passing through the gears, the softer load peaks with the IDS will reduce those effects.

Without it I believe there's also more of a tendency to have the harder impulse reflect back toward its origin. When something like that happens, there'll be moments of slack when the wave coming back meets one of the same strength but opposite polarity going forward, and moments of increased energy where the waves are in sync, complementing each other.

Visualize the complex waveforms which develop when you toss a pebble into still water and the wave expands circularly, then hits a concrete wall, bouncing back again. Where the ripples meet coming and going; visualize that. Now, put a layer of open-cell foam on the wall and visualize what will happen with the reflected waves. They'll be much subdued and all the little local disturbances will be smoother. Maybe it would be safe enough to compare the IDS to that layer of foam.

Also part of the noise is that conventional drive chains are not smooth operators. The primary is such a critter. The effect is lessened the larger the pitch diameter of the sprocket in relation to the pitch of the chain. The pitch diameter (the diameter through which the centers of the chain link pivots pass) actually is effectively two sizes at the points where the chain is picked up and fed

 

I Think the noises in fifth and sixth gears have a totally different origin. I am NOT an engineer, this is just from my observation over 2500 miles on my Ultra. The fifth gear noise is definately a gear whine. Sixth gear noise is totally different. It sounds like someone is doing a drum roll with two ballpene hammers on the engine. The noise gets significantly worse under two conditons: First when the engine loads up when going up an incline and secondly, when you are going down hill. The tapping noise coincides with a power pulse. So what I think is this: Take your bike with the engine off and put it in gear and grab the drive belt and as hard as you can shake it back and forth. There is a little play between the gears engaged on the front side and the gears when they engage on the back side. As you vigorously move the belt back and forth you are gonna get some noise . As the power pulses get stronger when the engine loads up, the tapping gets louder. Now imagine what the IDS sprocket will do to the tapping when you cushion the power pulse with massive rubber grommets. It now is not metal against metal, it is metal against rubber. SO I feel the power pulses are still streaming down the drive train and hitting the sprocket, and the IDS sprocket absorbs them. I still feel the Compensator is not doing its job.Please let me know what you think. I am totally wrong??