synthetic oils
#1
06-04-2009 | 02:02 PM
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Intermediate
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 44
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From: Jefferson, GA
synthetic oils
Ok..Im gathering info for when its time to change the fluids. Im coming up on the 5000 mi mark. I have an 08 Ultra and yes it has the 5th gear whine. HD put "Synthetic" in everything at the 1000 mi. but I still have the 5th gear whine. Bike shifts fine at this time with no issues. I do have a little clunk and rattle though. A little while back I remember somebody on here talking about a certain weight oil that helps the whine. Whats yalls input for these issues? Put Synthetic in all 3 holes or what? Any Input would be appreciated.
#2
06-04-2009 | 02:21 PM
Road Master
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 829
Likes: 45
From: California
An interesting read from www.harleyhelp.com...
Oil Brands & Types
Harley-Davidson oil is always worth the extra money. I can't stress this enough with my customers. I'm not a salesman or anything, I try to only use H-D oil in any bike I work on, even when I worked in aftermarket shops (I even recommend HD oil in the Big Dogs and other S&S motors).
H-Ds and most other V-Twins are roller bearing engines and most others (foreign bikes, automotive, ect.) are flat "Babbitt bearing" or "Plain bearing" style engines, which require as "Slick" as possible oil (synthetic). If that type of oil is used in a Harley motor, you could be faced with what is called "Bearing Skate", that is when the roller bearing starts to slide on it's race instead of roll and creates flat spots, which creates friction and heat, which winds up at engine failure. Harley oil is formulated to be sort of..... tacky, to allow the bearings to roll. It is also formulated to withstand higher temperatures, for those days stuck in traffic. More research has gone into developing Harley-Davidson oil than anything else they make because of how hot the motors were getting back in the '70s.
The snappy comeback is usually "Yeah, who is making the oil for Harley this week?" and my answer is "Why should it matter?" Harley-Davidson has a specific set of specifications that the oil manufacturer must be able to produce and as long as the oil meets those specs, who cares who makes it, somebody has to. (I don't think H-D has any plans on going into the oil refinery biz.)
As for what weight to run? I use 20/50 in my '79, the multi-weight allows the old shovels to get oil pressure to the top end quicker when the motor is cold and will allow the starter to turn the motor over a little easier, but if you live in a warmer climate you might want to run something heavier or some thing lighter in colder climates. (I switch to HD 10/40 in November or the damn thing won't start)
Update!
Awhile back I noticed in some of the popular bike rags (magazines) some adds for
H-Ds and most other V-Twins are roller bearing engines and most others (foreign bikes, automotive, ect.) are flat "Babbitt bearing" or "Plain bearing" style engines, which require as "Slick" as possible oil (synthetic). If that type of oil is used in a Harley motor, you could be faced with what is called "Bearing Skate", that is when the roller bearing starts to slide on it's race instead of roll and creates flat spots, which creates friction and heat, which winds up at engine failure. Harley oil is formulated to be sort of..... tacky, to allow the bearings to roll. It is also formulated to withstand higher temperatures, for those days stuck in traffic. More research has gone into developing Harley-Davidson oil than anything else they make because of how hot the motors were getting back in the '70s.
The snappy comeback is usually "Yeah, who is making the oil for Harley this week?" and my answer is "Why should it matter?" Harley-Davidson has a specific set of specifications that the oil manufacturer must be able to produce and as long as the oil meets those specs, who cares who makes it, somebody has to. (I don't think H-D has any plans on going into the oil refinery biz.)
As for what weight to run? I use 20/50 in my '79, the multi-weight allows the old shovels to get oil pressure to the top end quicker when the motor is cold and will allow the starter to turn the motor over a little easier, but if you live in a warmer climate you might want to run something heavier or some thing lighter in colder climates. (I switch to HD 10/40 in November or the damn thing won't start)
Update!
Awhile back I noticed in some of the popular bike rags (magazines) some adds for
Mobile1 synthetic oil for use in Harley-Davidsons. Always trying to keep up with the market, I like to try to have the most accurate and up to date info to offer my customers and being curious about how they had addressed the "Bearing Skate" problem, I started making some phone calls, starting with the number in the add. After explaining to the teenager that answered the phone exactly what information I was looking for, he simply said, "Sure, our oil is OK to use in Harleys!" After some coaxing I finally convinced him I needed a little more "in-depth" answer, he transferred me to another line who gave me a number for tech info, so I called that. They said that they would send me an "Information Package". Two weeks later I received it. It was full of useless technical jargon (expected to confuse the common lay-person, I'm sure) and completely danced around the questions I had.... So I called them back! The person that answered the phone said he would send me an "Information Package" again and I told him that he already did and that I had it in my hand and could he connect me with someone who actually "knows what he's talking about". (I actually used that phrase, Hah!) So he said he would put me in touch with their "Research and Development Tech". After about 45 minutes on hold he finally picked up and I introduced myself and told him I was seeking information about the best product to provide to my customers, knowing that in the past, H-D motors would commonly develop the "bearing skate" condition when using synthetic oil. I inquired about Mobile1 Oil and what had been done to alleviate the adverse condition. His reply was that nothing at all had been done to Mobile1 Oil as their scientists have determined that the condition of "Bearing Skate" is a myth and does not exist. When I asked if I could speak to one of the "Scientists" I was told they were unavailable. When I asked if I could send to the scientists some of the parts that had been removed from low mileage H-D motors after exclusive use of synthetic motor oils, I was given a flat "No" and a "Thank you for calling." and hung up on.
After the whole thing, I was left with the impression that nobody employed atMobil Oil Companyhas any interest in selling their product at all ! (I guess that's what advertising agencies are for)
Now H-D is marketing their own brand of synthetic oil (Syn3). The HD Synthetic was initially designed for the V-Rod (which was designed by Porsche and is no different than any other foreign bike, the V-Rod uses a "Plain bearing" motor - not roller bearings) but now they claim it's ok for your older bike too (hmmmmm, aren't these the same folks that want to sell you a new bike?). After calling the good folks at the H-D tech line, they said "Yes, it's ok to use the H-D Synthetic oil (Syn3) in TwinCam and earlier motors" but when I asked them if they actually recommended using it in those motors the answer was a flat "No, we do not recommend that you use our synthetic oil in the roller bearing type motors, we recommend that you use our standard Harley-Davidson 20/50, 10/40 or the straight weights 40-60w, depending on the climate.
Bourget Bike Worksinitially believed so heavily in the synthetics that they actually milled the Mobil1 logo in the aluminum oil tank caps of all of their motorcycles only to find that the new motors were having some problems breaking-in properly so they changed their policies to using standard oil types (preferably H-D oil) during the break-in period (as recommended by S&S) and then switching to Mobil1 Synthetic V-Twin Motor Oil after the break-in period was complete. 2 years later, after trying to keep up with an overwhelming amount of warranty claims, Roger Bourget made the statement that he did not want any type of synthetic motor oils anywhere near his bikes ever. His company has since backed away from that statement and now claims that you can use any motor oil of your choosing after the warranty period is up.
Big Dog Motorcycles, the second largest selling American motorcycle company in the world (second only to H-D), very boldly states right in their owners manual that the use of synthetic motor oils will VOID the warranty.
S&S Cycleremains neutral on the subject stating that Harley-Davidson oil is required during the warranty period and then it is OK to use any motor oil of your choosing after the warranty period is complete.
I am not totally against synthetic oils, I prefer to use synthetic oils in my wife's Honda and her Buick and I even use Synthetic oil in my 1963 GMC pickup, I will also say that they tend to work very well in H-D transmissions and primaries. If you choose to use Synthetic motor oils in your V-Twin, roller bearing style motors, you may notice right away that the engine seems to run quieter and cooler than it did with H-D oil, but do not be fooled, you might not like the early component failures and major engine damage you could experience after only 20,000 or 30,000 miles.
The only RIGHT answer to the oil debate is... It's your bike and you should use whatever oil you believe in. I have given you my opinion based on observations over years in the field and I really don't care if you use "Johnson's Baby Oil".
It's your bike, choose your poison.
After the whole thing, I was left with the impression that nobody employed atMobil Oil Companyhas any interest in selling their product at all ! (I guess that's what advertising agencies are for)
Now H-D is marketing their own brand of synthetic oil (Syn3). The HD Synthetic was initially designed for the V-Rod (which was designed by Porsche and is no different than any other foreign bike, the V-Rod uses a "Plain bearing" motor - not roller bearings) but now they claim it's ok for your older bike too (hmmmmm, aren't these the same folks that want to sell you a new bike?). After calling the good folks at the H-D tech line, they said "Yes, it's ok to use the H-D Synthetic oil (Syn3) in TwinCam and earlier motors" but when I asked them if they actually recommended using it in those motors the answer was a flat "No, we do not recommend that you use our synthetic oil in the roller bearing type motors, we recommend that you use our standard Harley-Davidson 20/50, 10/40 or the straight weights 40-60w, depending on the climate.
Bourget Bike Worksinitially believed so heavily in the synthetics that they actually milled the Mobil1 logo in the aluminum oil tank caps of all of their motorcycles only to find that the new motors were having some problems breaking-in properly so they changed their policies to using standard oil types (preferably H-D oil) during the break-in period (as recommended by S&S) and then switching to Mobil1 Synthetic V-Twin Motor Oil after the break-in period was complete. 2 years later, after trying to keep up with an overwhelming amount of warranty claims, Roger Bourget made the statement that he did not want any type of synthetic motor oils anywhere near his bikes ever. His company has since backed away from that statement and now claims that you can use any motor oil of your choosing after the warranty period is up.
Big Dog Motorcycles, the second largest selling American motorcycle company in the world (second only to H-D), very boldly states right in their owners manual that the use of synthetic motor oils will VOID the warranty.
S&S Cycleremains neutral on the subject stating that Harley-Davidson oil is required during the warranty period and then it is OK to use any motor oil of your choosing after the warranty period is complete.
I am not totally against synthetic oils, I prefer to use synthetic oils in my wife's Honda and her Buick and I even use Synthetic oil in my 1963 GMC pickup, I will also say that they tend to work very well in H-D transmissions and primaries. If you choose to use Synthetic motor oils in your V-Twin, roller bearing style motors, you may notice right away that the engine seems to run quieter and cooler than it did with H-D oil, but do not be fooled, you might not like the early component failures and major engine damage you could experience after only 20,000 or 30,000 miles.
The only RIGHT answer to the oil debate is... It's your bike and you should use whatever oil you believe in. I have given you my opinion based on observations over years in the field and I really don't care if you use "Johnson's Baby Oil".
It's your bike, choose your poison.
#3
06-04-2009 | 02:21 PM
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 791
Likes: 36
From: Edmonton, AB
If you don't get many responses to your query, it's not because we don't like you. It's just that the subject of what oil to use where has been beaten to death here. I suggest you use the forum seach here for "synthetic oil" and you'll get more information and opinions than you ever thought possible.
I use Amsoil 20W-50 V-Twin synthetic in the crankcase, Amsoil 75-140 in the gearbox, and HD in the primary. That's what I use, but to each their own.
Ride safe!
I use Amsoil 20W-50 V-Twin synthetic in the crankcase, Amsoil 75-140 in the gearbox, and HD in the primary. That's what I use, but to each their own.
Ride safe!
#7
06-04-2009 | 03:03 PM
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,423
Likes: 2
From: Ellenwood, GA - The Ghetto Part
bamorris2, That info you gave is......how can I say it???......a crock.
I loved this part:
If you choose to use Synthetic motor oils in your V-Twin, roller bearing style motors, you may notice right away that the engine seems to run quieter and cooler than it did with H-D oil, but do not be fooled, you might not like the early component failures and major engine damage you could experience after only 20,000 or 30,000 miles.
The only RIGHT answer to the oil debate is... It's your bike and you should use whatever oil you believe in. I have given you my opinion based on observations over years in the field and I really don't care if you use "Johnson's Baby Oil".
It's your bike, choose your poison.
I've been using synthetics in last 3 motorcycles we've owned with NO problems whatsoever regarding any engine problems as have 100's of others on here.
I loved this part:
If you choose to use Synthetic motor oils in your V-Twin, roller bearing style motors, you may notice right away that the engine seems to run quieter and cooler than it did with H-D oil, but do not be fooled, you might not like the early component failures and major engine damage you could experience after only 20,000 or 30,000 miles.
The only RIGHT answer to the oil debate is... It's your bike and you should use whatever oil you believe in. I have given you my opinion based on observations over years in the field and I really don't care if you use "Johnson's Baby Oil".
It's your bike, choose your poison.
I've been using synthetics in last 3 motorcycles we've owned with NO problems whatsoever regarding any engine problems as have 100's of others on here.
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#9
06-04-2009 | 03:28 PM
Road Master
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 829
Likes: 45
From: California
bamorris2, That info you gave is......how can I say it???......a crock.
I loved this part:
If you choose to use Synthetic motor oils in your V-Twin, roller bearing style motors, you may notice right away that the engine seems to run quieter and cooler than it did with H-D oil, but do not be fooled, you might not like the early component failures and major engine damage you could experience after only 20,000 or 30,000 miles.
The only RIGHT answer to the oil debate is... It's your bike and you should use whatever oil you believe in. I have given you my opinion based on observations over years in the field and I really don't care if you use "Johnson's Baby Oil".
It's your bike, choose your poison.
I've been using synthetics in last 3 motorcycles we've owned with NO problems whatsoever regarding any engine problems as have 100's of others on here.
I loved this part:
If you choose to use Synthetic motor oils in your V-Twin, roller bearing style motors, you may notice right away that the engine seems to run quieter and cooler than it did with H-D oil, but do not be fooled, you might not like the early component failures and major engine damage you could experience after only 20,000 or 30,000 miles.
The only RIGHT answer to the oil debate is... It's your bike and you should use whatever oil you believe in. I have given you my opinion based on observations over years in the field and I really don't care if you use "Johnson's Baby Oil".
It's your bike, choose your poison.
I've been using synthetics in last 3 motorcycles we've owned with NO problems whatsoever regarding any engine problems as have 100's of others on here.
Yeah, I have to agree with you. I wasn't posting it saying that it was right, just that it was an interesting read. Also skeptical of his claims, I went to Big Dog Motorcycle's website. They have their owner manuals online. So I looked up their recommendation for motor oil. It bluntly says that either mineral or synthetic oil can be used in the engine. Further, nowhere in their warranty do they state that using synthetic oil will void their warranty (warranty is also online). So this guy is either lying through his teeth, or Big Dog changed their view.
#10
06-04-2009 | 03:37 PM
Club Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,892
Likes: 2
From: DUNDALK,MARYLAND
Syn 3 come out of the trans the same as it went at 5,000 miles. But if you have a gear noise red line for trans has same nice gear oil it's red in color. Help to let you know if there is a leak inside your bearings.