Cam shaft bearings - not!
#11
08-22-2007, 03:35 PM
RE: Cam shaft bearings - not!
I read the article and saw the pictures. Most overhead cam cars and most Japanese motorcycles are built this way, including my Suzuki 1200 Bandit, a motor known for long term reliability. What I did notice from the picture is that the bearing surface area in the cam plate seems mighty thin, like a half inch or less. The bearing surface on my Bandit for each cam journal is around 3/4 inch or so. The author question the long term issue in the article. At least the cam plate is not that expensive compared to buying new cases.
#12
08-22-2007, 05:05 PM
RE: Cam shaft bearings - not!
The new cam plate sems to be orking,some of these members are tacking on the miles,a redesigned cam plate is in the works by the aftermarket that gives these cams something else to ride on plus stronger plate.The 07 plates are said to be pretty raw-no or little deburring- by Donny Pettersen.Hard to sell new bikes if old ones keep going.
#13
08-22-2007, 08:34 PM
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RE: Cam shaft bearings - not!
There's some great information here from you all. I 'm glad I brought it up. It seemed to me at the time a stepbackwards from bearings to a bearing surface but, I'm not a metallurgist. I was just taking the word of someone who seemed to know what he was talking about and wondered what information would show up here on this forum. There are a bunch of knowlegeable guys on here.
Skip, in your opinion, what present or past motor is the most rebuildable and presented the least problems that didn't require a lot of aftermarket engineering for premature failures or oil leaks and things like that in general? It may be that every one had a quirk or two that required attention but I was wondering which one had the least amount of problems. I'm just curious and from reading a lot of your posts I value your opinion.
Skip, in your opinion, what present or past motor is the most rebuildable and presented the least problems that didn't require a lot of aftermarket engineering for premature failures or oil leaks and things like that in general? It may be that every one had a quirk or two that required attention but I was wondering which one had the least amount of problems. I'm just curious and from reading a lot of your posts I value your opinion.
#14
08-23-2007, 12:08 AM
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RE: Cam shaft bearings - not!
Thanks for all the info, guys.I read that article yesterday and was going to start a thread and, lo and behold, someone else read it and also was concerned about the change and beat me to it.
I am not a mechanic, and while the newsetupstruck meas not being as good as using bearings long-term, thatthought seems to be at least open to debate. An Ultra is in my future as my last Harley, a few years down the road I thought, but nowI am really debating whether to buy an 06 now with its TC-88 (right now there are plenty availablewith fairly low miles), a bit earlier than I had planned, or buying a new one in a few years that will have the TC-96. If it will be my last bike, which one will be easier and cheaper to maintain and repair years down the line? If the TC-96 has more throwaway parts than the TC-88 (like the cam suport plate), maybe the latter is the way to go? But isn't the TC-96 an overall better engine than the TC-88?
With an 06, I get the new radio and avoid the Ultra six speed tranny noise issues, even though the MoCo tried to address it for 08.
I admit it, I am confused (more so than normal).
I am not a mechanic, and while the newsetupstruck meas not being as good as using bearings long-term, thatthought seems to be at least open to debate. An Ultra is in my future as my last Harley, a few years down the road I thought, but nowI am really debating whether to buy an 06 now with its TC-88 (right now there are plenty availablewith fairly low miles), a bit earlier than I had planned, or buying a new one in a few years that will have the TC-96. If it will be my last bike, which one will be easier and cheaper to maintain and repair years down the line? If the TC-96 has more throwaway parts than the TC-88 (like the cam suport plate), maybe the latter is the way to go? But isn't the TC-96 an overall better engine than the TC-88?
With an 06, I get the new radio and avoid the Ultra six speed tranny noise issues, even though the MoCo tried to address it for 08.
I admit it, I am confused (more so than normal).
#15
08-23-2007, 02:31 AM
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RE: Cam shaft bearings - not!
ORIGINAL: tbone52
There's some great information here from you all. I 'm glad I brought it up. It seemed to me at the time a stepbackwards from bearings to a bearing surface but, I'm not a metallurgist. I was just taking the word of someone who seemed to know what he was talking about and wondered what information would show up here on this forum. There are a bunch of knowlegeable guys on here.
Skip, in your opinion, what present or past motor is the most rebuildable and presented the least problems that didn't require a lot of aftermarket engineering for premature failures or oil leaks and things like that in general? It may be that every one had a quirk or two that required attention but I was wondering which one had the least amount of problems. I'm just curious and from reading a lot of your posts I value your opinion.
There's some great information here from you all. I 'm glad I brought it up. It seemed to me at the time a stepbackwards from bearings to a bearing surface but, I'm not a metallurgist. I was just taking the word of someone who seemed to know what he was talking about and wondered what information would show up here on this forum. There are a bunch of knowlegeable guys on here.
Skip, in your opinion, what present or past motor is the most rebuildable and presented the least problems that didn't require a lot of aftermarket engineering for premature failures or oil leaks and things like that in general? It may be that every one had a quirk or two that required attention but I was wondering which one had the least amount of problems. I'm just curious and from reading a lot of your posts I value your opinion.
#16
08-23-2007, 02:06 PM
RE: Cam shaft bearings - not!
ORIGINAL: RenoRainesRenegade
Thanks for all the info, guys.I read that article yesterday and was going to start a thread and, lo and behold, someone else read it and also was concerned about the change and beat me to it.
I am not a mechanic, and while the newsetupstruck meas not being as good as using bearings long-term, thatthought seems to be at least open to debate. An Ultra is in my future as my last Harley, a few years down the road I thought, but nowI am really debating whether to buy an 06 now with its TC-88 (right now there are plenty availablewith fairly low miles), a bit earlier than I had planned, or buying a new one in a few years that will have the TC-96. If it will be my last bike, which one will be easier and cheaper to maintain and repair years down the line? If the TC-96 has more throwaway parts than the TC-88 (like the cam suport plate), maybe the latter is the way to go? But isn't the TC-96 an overall better engine than the TC-88?
With an 06, I get the new radio and avoid the Ultra six speed tranny noise issues, even though the MoCo tried to address it for 08.
I admit it, I am confused (more so than normal).
Thanks for all the info, guys.I read that article yesterday and was going to start a thread and, lo and behold, someone else read it and also was concerned about the change and beat me to it.
I am not a mechanic, and while the newsetupstruck meas not being as good as using bearings long-term, thatthought seems to be at least open to debate. An Ultra is in my future as my last Harley, a few years down the road I thought, but nowI am really debating whether to buy an 06 now with its TC-88 (right now there are plenty availablewith fairly low miles), a bit earlier than I had planned, or buying a new one in a few years that will have the TC-96. If it will be my last bike, which one will be easier and cheaper to maintain and repair years down the line? If the TC-96 has more throwaway parts than the TC-88 (like the cam suport plate), maybe the latter is the way to go? But isn't the TC-96 an overall better engine than the TC-88?
With an 06, I get the new radio and avoid the Ultra six speed tranny noise issues, even though the MoCo tried to address it for 08.
I admit it, I am confused (more so than normal).
#17
01-17-2008, 12:02 PM
RE: Cam shaft bearings - not!
Most small engine connecting rods are aluminum and they do not have a bushing either. I am not sure what aluminum they are using but my feeling is this just removed two parts that could fail but time will tell.
From a quality standpoint the cam plate I received for my roller chain conversion for my 2001 SERG was not de-burred at all andI am returning it. The HD dealer said the techs have to debur them before they are installed. I am sure they are not de-burred on the line for the new bikes. I was going to debur mine but why should I have to? If more are returned maybe the quality will be improved. Maybe I will write HD a letter. Has anyone looked at theirs?
From a quality standpoint the cam plate I received for my roller chain conversion for my 2001 SERG was not de-burred at all andI am returning it. The HD dealer said the techs have to debur them before they are installed. I am sure they are not de-burred on the line for the new bikes. I was going to debur mine but why should I have to? If more are returned maybe the quality will be improved. Maybe I will write HD a letter. Has anyone looked at theirs?
#18
01-17-2008, 03:20 PM
RE: Cam shaft bearings - not!
ORIGINAL: tbone52
It seems that ball bearings were used in very early model Twin Cams until the rear cam shaft bearing starting failing. Then they were changed to one ball bearing in the front and a roller bearing in the rear. Then, get this, the bearings were eliminated in the 2006 Dynas and in all 2007 and 2008 Twin Cams. There are no bushings. The end of the cam shafts are spinning in a hole in the cam plate and seperated from the aluminum in the cam plate by a film of oil.
It seems that ball bearings were used in very early model Twin Cams until the rear cam shaft bearing starting failing. Then they were changed to one ball bearing in the front and a roller bearing in the rear. Then, get this, the bearings were eliminated in the 2006 Dynas and in all 2007 and 2008 Twin Cams. There are no bushings. The end of the cam shafts are spinning in a hole in the cam plate and seperated from the aluminum in the cam plate by a film of oil.
Don't worry about the new motors....if you take care of them they will last. And no doubt someone will make a overbore bushing rebuild kit in the coming years to address rebuilds.
#19
01-17-2008, 03:32 PM
RE: Cam shaft bearings - not!
Not a problem . It's used in the best of engines and will probably outlast you. It can also be bushed down the road.That is also why the 5 micron oil filter is used. Sure it has a bypass and unfiltered oil will travel around a few times before it cleans it. It's not like everytime you start the engine a large pile of shavings need to be filtered out. Once cleaned, the filter will keep up unless a component is failing making more than normal debri. This is one of the reasons that I recommend dumping the oil and filterat around 200-300 miles. The cleaner the filter is, the less time it will spend on bypass during warmup.
Ron
Ron
#20
01-17-2008, 07:36 PM
RE: Cam shaft bearings - not!
I have attached5 photos of the new 06-08 cam plate I recieved for my roller chain conversion. Two of them show the casting flash/porosity which was marked by someone prior to me getting the plate from the dealer. The other photo shows more casting flash that was not cleaned up and the other two just show the inner and outer sides of the cam plate bearing where they did not bother to chamfer the outside edge.This is not the quality I would expect from HD but this issue was also mentioned in American Iron so it is not isolated to this plate. I could clean up the plate and removed the burrs but I am returing it for another one.