Do I hear an amen!?

 

I like this stuff! Keep em comin'!

 

"iclick"

“First, about the Fast Fours and Rotaries tests mention on the website above, I've seen it and it is bogus. They measured particle size as a gauge for an oil's performance, and this can't be done accurately unless all test environments are totally equal, which they are not and can't be. In the first portion of the test is a large, full-page ad for Amsoil, which of course scored highest on the test. No other oils had ads in that issue. Read this test and you'll undoubtedly agree that the test procedures were flawed. I've said it before and I'll say it again, that both products are excellent lubricants. One is not superior to the other in all categories, and each has its own combination of virtues and vices, just like all the other major players.”

Are you talking about the test on:
http://www.performancemotoroil.com/R...rple_info.html
or:
http://www.royalpurple.com/techrp/summary.html

“Call Cummins like I did and get the info first-hand. If RP had made the same statement, I would've gone out and searched for other opinions just like I did with the Amsoil claim. The point is that we should not believe everything we read, even when it is what we want to hear. As for RP tests, they do exist, but you will have to call the corporate HQ and ask for them. They don't particularly care about publicizing these because they can't make their oil fast enough now, and are under no pressure to convince anyone of anything.”

Did you understand what I wrote back, when I said I don’t believe that Cummins wants or needs to fly the battle flag on “no moly” use in the engines ? it sound like they put it out once and AMSOIL “jump on it” for marketing purposes, it’s business and for the life of me I can’t understand a company does not publish it’s tests but will send them out on request ? why not just put them on it’s web site ?? they have one ! I am not telling them to spend ad money ? I am asking them to put that data on their testing right on their owncompanys IT desk and post it. It’s FREE !

“ They thrive on testimonials and word-of-mouth communication over other forms of promotion. Amsoil has their own coterie of users who provide testimonials, and like I said, both are excellent products. Do I need to say it again? Do I hear an "Amen!"?”

AMSOIL as does RP have their own “coterie of users” everything you have stated and the adjectives used in describing AMSOIL users are the same for RP users. And I hear you, been hearing you, but you are not someone neutral with zero bias in this, we both aren’t.

[font="times new roman"][size=3]“ I have some tests here, but they are old (probably 10 years or more) and very technical, mostly in the form of esoteric graphs that most people including me would have trouble decyphering. IIRC, they are RP vs. Castrol synthetic and Mobil

 

ORIGINAL: cj_slowdown

Are you talking about the test on:
http://www.performancemotoroil.com/R...rple_info.html
or:
http://www.royalpurple.com/techrp/summary.html


The first of those mentioned.


Did you understand what I wrote back, when I said I don’t believe that Cummins wants or needs to fly the battle flag on “no moly” use in the engines ? it sound like they put it out once and AMSOIL “jump on it” for marketing purposes, it’s business and for the life of me I can’t understand a company does not publish it’s tests but will send them out on request ? why not just put them on it’s web site ?? they have one ! I am not telling them to spend ad money ? I am asking them to put that data on their testing right on their owncompanys IT desk and post it. It’s FREE !


I gathered from my talk with Cummins that the moly warning is non-existent and never was a part of any company policy. He said he'd never heard of it and could find no Cummins documents that reflected what was quoted. Cummins does warn against using "friction modifiers" unless specifically designed for use in diesel engines and designated as such by the oil manufacturers. Moly is a friction modifier, but RP 20w50 and 15w40 definitely have diesel ratings and I think Mobil 1 does too, so they wouldn't be subject to that warning. I don't know about Redline. You'd be amazed at how many oils on the market don't have a diesel rating. Go to an auto-parts store sometime and browse the oil section. It's an interesting experience reading the labels.

Perhaps some over-eager Amsoil seller saw this blurb and embellished it, then others picked up on it without researching the issue first.


AMSOIL as does RP have their own “coterie of users” everything you have stated and the adjectives used in describing AMSOIL users are the same for RP users. And I hear you, been hearing you, but you are not someone neutral with zero bias in this, we both aren’t.


[size="3"][font="tahoma"]I really have no bias toward oil, and think all the main players are excellent. I've never said RP was best at anything, even though it may be best in some categories, and never suggested that anyone should use it over anything else. It has served me well in about 10 years of use, as I've already outlined. I frequently say that I believe people should base their oil choice on price and availability. I get RP through a distributor at dealer cost and he delivers it to my door. I also get it for my friends without a mark-up, so the RP guy likes me. The 20w50 for the MC and 15w40 for my car costs about $5/qt. by the 5-gal. pail, which puts it down with the least expensive quality synthetics on the market, and since it is delivered to me usually on the same day I order it, it has the highest score in availability. Thus, I'm putting my money where my mouth is. If I need some RP on the road, it is available in many or maybe all O'Reilly, Pep Boys, and Napa stores--a

 

“iclick”

ORIGINAL: (cj_slowdown)

(cj)
Are you talking about the test on: http://www.performancemotoroil.com/Royal_Purple_info.html or: http://www.royalpurple.com/techrp/summary.html

“iclick”
“The first of those mentioned”

(cj)
(Did you understand what I wrote back, when I said I dont believe that Cummins wants or needs to fly the battle flag on “no moly” use in the engines ? it sound like they put it out once and AMSOIL “jump on it” for marketing purposes, its business and for the life of me I cant understand a company does not publish its tests but will send them out on request ? why not just put them on its web site ?? they have one ! I am not telling them to spend ad money ? I am asking them to put that data on their testing right on their own companys IT desk and post it. Its FREE !)

“iclick”
“ I gathered from my talk with Cummins that the moly warning was non-existent and never was. He said he'd never heard of it and could find no Cummins documents that reflected what was quoted. Cummins does warn against using "friction modifiers" unless specifically designed for use in diesel engines. Moly is a friction modifier, but RP 20w50 and 15w40 definitely has a diesel rating and I think Mobil 1 does too, so they wouldn't be subject to that warning. I don't know about Redline. You'd be amazed at how many oils on the market don't have a diesel rating. Go to an auto-parts store sometime and browse the oil section. It's an interesting experience reading the labels”

iclick, this isn’t about what you heard and what you believe in, I can not just take some tech word about this issue, there is just too much too it, this IMO goes beyond anyone working at Cummins unless I see something as I stated on Cummins letterhead stating this is false statement we never made any kind of statement concerning “moly” damage in our valve trains.

“iclick”
“Perhaps some over-eager Amsoil seller saw this blurb and embellished it, then others picked up on it without researching the issue first.”

Blurb and embellished it ? what could have been written in the first place that could be embellished so much to turn it into that ? its just like the old embellishment of “if my aunt had *****, she would be my uncle”

(cj)
[font="times new roman"][color=#0066cc][size=3](AMSOIL as does RP have their own “coterie of users” everything you have stated and the adjectives used in describing AMSOIL users are the same for RP users. And I hear you, been hearing you, but you are not someone neutral with zero bias in

 

This document is quoted as saying,[size="3"] "There is firm evidence that certain friction modifiers, molybdenum dithiophosphate for example, can in certain formulations result in cam follower pin failure at relatively low mileage...." The site you mentioned only mentions this sentence out of the entire document. Could there be more to it that is answered in other sections of the document?

First, they say "in certain formulations." Keep in mind that most high-end synthetics use moly in their formulations, including RP, Redline, and Mobil 1. If there was a problem with their formulas, do you think they would continue to use moly? Why do you assume that "in certain formulations" includes these major oil manufacturers? Amsoil also uses FM's, so why wouldn't you assume their forumula was suspect, too?

Second, I'm not familiar with dithiophosphate, which is the "for example" in that warning. The common usage of moly in oil is in the form of moly disulphide, RP being one. My question to the Cummins tech was specifically about moly disulphide. I think we're talking apples and oranges here.

Third, my '96 RK had 106k miles on the odometer when I traded it, with no degradation of performance, compression, or oil consumption. Do you think the moly caused damage to this engine? Don't you think had it done so it would've shown up by now after nine years of use?
How long does it take for the moly to destroy the bike's engine? I also have used diesel-rated RP (also containing moly) in turbocharged car engines and none of these have had any engine problems in high-mileage use, and not even any turbocharger replacements.

Fourth, two motorcycle magazines tested oil and both lauded the use of moly in the formulae they tested. Are they wrong too? American Iron said that moly is a superior anti-friction additive, and any oil company that includes it in their formula cares about your bike. That's paraphrased, but is nearly a word-for-word quote.

Fifth, the Amsoil sites mention Cummins banning moly, and mentions "catastrophic valvetrain failure." Isn't that a stretch based on what you see in the quoted document? Where did this hyperbole come from? It certainly wasn't from the Cummins document.

You must presume that while Cummins warns of friction modifiers in "some formulations" that Amsoil's competitors are automatically on that list. Keep in mind that zinc and phosphorus are also FM's, which are in copious supply in Amsoil, a fact they openly advertise. Few people will take what's been said and presume that oil containing moly disulphide will harm an engine, and it's included in the formulae because it is an effective friction reducer that increases mileage and engine life. Do a Google search on "molybdenum disulphide" and read up on it. It is a very expensive additive, and oil companies would not use it if there wasn't a clear benefit for doing so.

Also, I was surprised to l

 

Yes my brother! Now your feeling the spirit.
The time has come for the sacrifice...now everyone grab a quart of oil and bring it to the vespars bowl[sm=badbadbad.gif]. Then we'll sing kum-by-ya[sm=hail.gif][sm=hail.gif][sm=hail.gif][sm=hail.gif][sm=hail.gif]
[sm=hail.gif][sm=hail.gif][sm=hail.gif][sm=hail.gif]
[sm=hail.gif][sm=hail.gif][sm=hail.gif][sm=hail.gif]

Steve[sm=icon_rock.gif]
The AMSOIL Guy

 

“ORIGINAL: cj_slowdown Check out the OEM bulletin from Cummins. It is the Cummins Engine Oil Recommendations, Bulletin No. 3810340-02 dated May 1996. Its probably best if you stopped by a Cummins Dealer and purchased this bulletin- about $2 or $3. On page 7 it has a section on FRICTION MODIFIERS states: "There is firm evidence that certain friction modifiers, molybdenum dithiophosphate for example, can in certain formulations result in cam follower pin failure at relatively low mileage"........ http://lubesolutions.com/html/molyeo.html “

“iclick”
“This document is quoted as saying, "There is firm evidence that certain friction modifiers, molybdenum dithiophosphate for example, can in certain formulations result in cam follower pin failure at relatively low mileage...." The site you mentioned only mentions this sentence out of the entire document. Could there be more to it that is answered in other sections of the document?”

I think it’s obvious there is more too it ! Just pay the 2 to $3.00 for the report ?

“iclick”
“ First, they say "in certain formulations." Keep in mind that most high-end synthetics use moly in their formulations, including RP, Redline, and Mobil 1. If there was a problem with their formulas, do you think they would continue to use moly? Why do you assume that "in certain formulations" includes these major oil manufacturers? Amsoil also uses FM's, so why wouldn't you assume their forumula was suspect, too? “

I don’t try to ASSUME anything, but I will try here, to me “moly” is from Dino oil” whats it doing in the synthetic oil ? you mention “RP, Redline, and Mobil 1” chooses to use it ? maybe the inventor of synthetic oil AMSOIL doesn’t think it’s needed or maybe didn’t make the grade ?

“iclick”
“Second, I'm not familiar with dithiophosphate, which is the "for example" in that warning. The common usage of moly in oil is in the form of moly disulphide, RP being one. My question to the Cummins tech was specifically about moly disulphide. I think we're talking apples and oranges here. “

Whats apples and oranges ? Cummins stated that "There is firm evidence that certain friction modifiers, molybdenum dithiophosphate for example, can in certain formulations result in cam follower pin failure at relatively low mileage...."
They used the word “certain friction modifiers” meaning to me more than “one” I work for a chemical company but I am not a chemist ! do we have to be, in order to buy oil ?

“iclick”
[font="times new roman"][size=3]“Third, my '96 RK had 106k miles on the odometer when I traded it, with no degradation of performance, compression, or oil consumption. Do you think the moly caused damage to this engine? Don't you think had it done so it would've shown up by now after nine years of use? How long does it take for the moly to destroy

 

It says right here that Moly can cause problems in certain applications!

[IMG]local://upfiles/3789/9AEE3E0CDE7B47A59538D0F163B47E5A.jpg[/IMG]

 

I did it, but still don't feel fulfilled. Maybe I need to change to Amsoil. Egad, I feel a warmth all over my body! Could it be that spirit of the big AMSOIL can in the sky?