Is my bike sumping?
#1
10-07-2018 | 03:55 PM
Thread Starter
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,483
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From:
Is my bike sumping?
I am of the belief that the sumping issue is not necessarily an all or nothing affair.
I am of the opinion that machines out in service may be sumping, but not so much that the critical symptoms are manifest significantly for rider diagnosis, noticeable power loss or, in extreme cases, catastrophic failures.
Based upon my "diagnosis" today, I invite the collective wisdom of the brain-trust here.
2018 FLTRX Road Glide 107" - bone stock.
2000 miles, broken in properly; 1,000 mile service done by me with appropriate components at approximately 800 miles.
Today I performed the following "test."
Engine warmed up and checked oil level. 3/4 of the way up the hash marks.
Rode the local roads to the interstate short shifting, as I typically do for the first few miles.
Ambient temperature was about 77 degrees.
Once on the interstate on-ramp, I went through the gears shifting at 3,500 - 4000 rpm then ran the livin' **** out of it for about 7 miles in sixth gear - 90-110 mph; then, due to traffic, had to slow to 80-85 for two miles but alternated between 6th and 5th gears loading the engine as much as possible when gaps in traffic permitted - all the while going 80-85 mph.
When I was close enough to a rest area I shut off the engine and held the clutch in. Because I accelerated to about 85-90 for the 1/8 mile approach, the heavy bike actually coasted pretty well. Once in a safe spot, I put her on the jiffy stand and checked the oil immediately and then a few minutes later. Both times it was at the half-way point (on average) of the hash marks. Later that day, running some errands and not riding nearly as aggressively, I shut down and checked the oil hot - it was at the 5/8ths point.
So, there seems to be about a 1/8th delta on the oil level between aggressive riding and "normal" for me - which is much more conservative.
Assuming the hash marked area is graduated to a quart, that 1/8th translates to 4 ounces of difference ... on top of whatever already may be in the sump normally. I don't believe the MoCo for one minute that [fill in the ever changing blank amount] is "OK" to be in the crankcase as it's just a shuck and jive - dodge the warranty, hide the problem for two years scam. The service bulletin threshold amount "OK to be in the crankcase" apparently has been upwardly adjusted as more and more "sumping bikes" became known. Classic example of "if at first you don'y succeed, change the rules!"
So, to those here that I trust much more than the MoCo (Mo-money Company) or, perish the thought, Stealerships,
I ask ... is my bike sumping?
I am of the opinion that machines out in service may be sumping, but not so much that the critical symptoms are manifest significantly for rider diagnosis, noticeable power loss or, in extreme cases, catastrophic failures.
Based upon my "diagnosis" today, I invite the collective wisdom of the brain-trust here.
2018 FLTRX Road Glide 107" - bone stock.
2000 miles, broken in properly; 1,000 mile service done by me with appropriate components at approximately 800 miles.
Today I performed the following "test."
Engine warmed up and checked oil level. 3/4 of the way up the hash marks.
Rode the local roads to the interstate short shifting, as I typically do for the first few miles.
Ambient temperature was about 77 degrees.
Once on the interstate on-ramp, I went through the gears shifting at 3,500 - 4000 rpm then ran the livin' **** out of it for about 7 miles in sixth gear - 90-110 mph; then, due to traffic, had to slow to 80-85 for two miles but alternated between 6th and 5th gears loading the engine as much as possible when gaps in traffic permitted - all the while going 80-85 mph.
When I was close enough to a rest area I shut off the engine and held the clutch in. Because I accelerated to about 85-90 for the 1/8 mile approach, the heavy bike actually coasted pretty well. Once in a safe spot, I put her on the jiffy stand and checked the oil immediately and then a few minutes later. Both times it was at the half-way point (on average) of the hash marks. Later that day, running some errands and not riding nearly as aggressively, I shut down and checked the oil hot - it was at the 5/8ths point.
So, there seems to be about a 1/8th delta on the oil level between aggressive riding and "normal" for me - which is much more conservative.
Assuming the hash marked area is graduated to a quart, that 1/8th translates to 4 ounces of difference ... on top of whatever already may be in the sump normally. I don't believe the MoCo for one minute that [fill in the ever changing blank amount] is "OK" to be in the crankcase as it's just a shuck and jive - dodge the warranty, hide the problem for two years scam. The service bulletin threshold amount "OK to be in the crankcase" apparently has been upwardly adjusted as more and more "sumping bikes" became known. Classic example of "if at first you don'y succeed, change the rules!"
So, to those here that I trust much more than the MoCo (Mo-money Company) or, perish the thought, Stealerships,
I ask ... is my bike sumping?
Last edited by Jehu; 10-07-2018 at 05:04 PM.
#3
10-07-2018 | 05:14 PM
#5
10-08-2018 | 06:45 AM
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
I am of the belief that the sumping issue is not necessarily an all or nothing affair.
I am of the opinion that machines out in service may be sumping, but not so much that the critical symptoms are manifest significantly for rider diagnosis, noticeable power loss or, in extreme cases, catastrophic failures.
Based upon my "diagnosis" today, I invite the collective wisdom of the brain-trust here.
2018 FLTRX Road Glide 107" - bone stock.
2000 miles, broken in properly; 1,000 mile service done by me with appropriate components at approximately 800 miles.
Today I performed the following "test."
Engine warmed up and checked oil level. 3/4 of the way up the hash marks.
Rode the local roads to the interstate short shifting, as I typically do for the first few miles.
Ambient temperature was about 77 degrees.
Once on the interstate on-ramp, I went through the gears shifting at 3,500 - 4000 rpm then ran the livin' **** out of it for about 7 miles in sixth gear - 90-110 mph; then, due to traffic, had to slow to 80-85 for two miles but alternated between 6th and 5th gears loading the engine as much as possible when gaps in traffic permitted - all the while going 80-85 mph.
When I was close enough to a rest area I shut off the engine and held the clutch in. Because I accelerated to about 85-90 for the 1/8 mile approach, the heavy bike actually coasted pretty well. Once in a safe spot, I put her on the jiffy stand and checked the oil immediately and then a few minutes later. Both times it was at the half-way point (on average) of the hash marks. Later that day, running some errands and not riding nearly as aggressively, I shut down and checked the oil hot - it was at the 5/8ths point.
So, there seems to be about a 1/8th delta on the oil level between aggressive riding and "normal" for me - which is much more conservative.
Assuming the hash marked area is graduated to a quart, that 1/8th translates to 4 ounces of difference ... on top of whatever already may be in the sump normally. I don't believe the MoCo for one minute that [fill in the ever changing blank amount] is "OK" to be in the crankcase as it's just a shuck and jive - dodge the warranty, hide the problem for two years scam. The service bulletin threshold amount "OK to be in the crankcase" apparently has been upwardly adjusted as more and more "sumping bikes" became known. Classic example of "if at first you don'y succeed, change the rules!"
So, to those here that I trust much more than the MoCo (Mo-money Company) or, perish the thought, Stealerships,
I ask ... is my bike sumping?
I am of the opinion that machines out in service may be sumping, but not so much that the critical symptoms are manifest significantly for rider diagnosis, noticeable power loss or, in extreme cases, catastrophic failures.
Based upon my "diagnosis" today, I invite the collective wisdom of the brain-trust here.
2018 FLTRX Road Glide 107" - bone stock.
2000 miles, broken in properly; 1,000 mile service done by me with appropriate components at approximately 800 miles.
Today I performed the following "test."
Engine warmed up and checked oil level. 3/4 of the way up the hash marks.
Rode the local roads to the interstate short shifting, as I typically do for the first few miles.
Ambient temperature was about 77 degrees.
Once on the interstate on-ramp, I went through the gears shifting at 3,500 - 4000 rpm then ran the livin' **** out of it for about 7 miles in sixth gear - 90-110 mph; then, due to traffic, had to slow to 80-85 for two miles but alternated between 6th and 5th gears loading the engine as much as possible when gaps in traffic permitted - all the while going 80-85 mph.
When I was close enough to a rest area I shut off the engine and held the clutch in. Because I accelerated to about 85-90 for the 1/8 mile approach, the heavy bike actually coasted pretty well. Once in a safe spot, I put her on the jiffy stand and checked the oil immediately and then a few minutes later. Both times it was at the half-way point (on average) of the hash marks. Later that day, running some errands and not riding nearly as aggressively, I shut down and checked the oil hot - it was at the 5/8ths point.
So, there seems to be about a 1/8th delta on the oil level between aggressive riding and "normal" for me - which is much more conservative.
Assuming the hash marked area is graduated to a quart, that 1/8th translates to 4 ounces of difference ... on top of whatever already may be in the sump normally. I don't believe the MoCo for one minute that [fill in the ever changing blank amount] is "OK" to be in the crankcase as it's just a shuck and jive - dodge the warranty, hide the problem for two years scam. The service bulletin threshold amount "OK to be in the crankcase" apparently has been upwardly adjusted as more and more "sumping bikes" became known. Classic example of "if at first you don'y succeed, change the rules!"
So, to those here that I trust much more than the MoCo (Mo-money Company) or, perish the thought, Stealerships,
I ask ... is my bike sumping?
Last edited by Heatwave; 10-08-2018 at 06:47 AM.
#6
10-08-2018 | 07:50 AM
Thread Starter
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,483
Likes: 1,126
From:
I question whether SB1450 can really be acurate given the variables.
What I tried to simulate was a best case scenario for sumping and worse case scenario for the gerotor's ability to purge/scavenge.
SB1450 allows for an engine to be ridden at modest rpm and load - using only temperature as the threshold to test. If the engine is at lower rpm the sump may have been evacuated or at least partially evacuated compared to WCS (worse case scenario). In fact, if a sumped engine is allowed to sit and then idles for a while - evacuation is the intended result. Moreover, the SB originally specified three ounces as the threshold and then was upped to six ounces. The whole affair raises more questions than answers.
What I tried to simulate was a best case scenario for sumping and worse case scenario for the gerotor's ability to purge/scavenge.
SB1450 allows for an engine to be ridden at modest rpm and load - using only temperature as the threshold to test. If the engine is at lower rpm the sump may have been evacuated or at least partially evacuated compared to WCS (worse case scenario). In fact, if a sumped engine is allowed to sit and then idles for a while - evacuation is the intended result. Moreover, the SB originally specified three ounces as the threshold and then was upped to six ounces. The whole affair raises more questions than answers.
#7
10-08-2018 | 07:55 AM
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
I question whether SB1450 can really be acurate given the variables.
What I tried to simulate was a best case scenario for sumping and worse case scenario for the gerotor's ability to purge/scavenge.
SB1450 allows for an engine to be ridden at modest rpm and load - using only temperature as the threshold to test. If the engine is at lower rpm the sump may have been evacuated or at least partially evacuated compared to WCS (worse case scenario). In fact, if a sumped engine is allowed to sit and then idles for a while - evacuation is the intended result. Moreover, the SB originally specified three ounces as the threshold and then was upped to six ounces. The whole affair raises more questions than answers.
What I tried to simulate was a best case scenario for sumping and worse case scenario for the gerotor's ability to purge/scavenge.
SB1450 allows for an engine to be ridden at modest rpm and load - using only temperature as the threshold to test. If the engine is at lower rpm the sump may have been evacuated or at least partially evacuated compared to WCS (worse case scenario). In fact, if a sumped engine is allowed to sit and then idles for a while - evacuation is the intended result. Moreover, the SB originally specified three ounces as the threshold and then was upped to six ounces. The whole affair raises more questions than answers.
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#8
10-17-2018 | 08:47 AM
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,743
Likes: 416
From: Vermont
I question whether SB1450 can really be acurate given the variables.
What I tried to simulate was a best case scenario for sumping and worse case scenario for the gerotor's ability to purge/scavenge.
SB1450 allows for an engine to be ridden at modest rpm and load - using only temperature as the threshold to test. If the engine is at lower rpm the sump may have been evacuated or at least partially evacuated compared to WCS (worse case scenario). In fact, if a sumped engine is allowed to sit and then idles for a while - evacuation is the intended result. Moreover, the SB originally specified three ounces as the threshold and then was upped to six ounces. The whole affair raises more questions than answers.
What I tried to simulate was a best case scenario for sumping and worse case scenario for the gerotor's ability to purge/scavenge.
SB1450 allows for an engine to be ridden at modest rpm and load - using only temperature as the threshold to test. If the engine is at lower rpm the sump may have been evacuated or at least partially evacuated compared to WCS (worse case scenario). In fact, if a sumped engine is allowed to sit and then idles for a while - evacuation is the intended result. Moreover, the SB originally specified three ounces as the threshold and then was upped to six ounces. The whole affair raises more questions than answers.
#9
10-17-2018 | 12:17 PM
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 751
Likes: 187
From: TN
I am going to add that having gone thru the sumping issues twice, it is very easy to tell. First, the exhaust gets louder, even in stock form. Second, the performance goes down the tube. Engine becomes sluggish on acceleration, engine braking/decel becomes greater, much more than normal. Third, engine heat, the engine gets hot, especially the rear exhaust pipe. And of course the burnt oil smell which can vary. After they replaced the pump the first time I couldn’t get the trike over 80mph, twist the throttle at 70 it took forever to get to 80. They ended up putting the plate and seal in before it went public. That seemed to take care of the issue, got rid of the bike for other reasons. Large amounts of oil in the sump will hurt performance, you can feel the difference.
