Intermittent Sumping 2018 Road King
#41
09-09-2018, 11:26 PM
Outstanding HDF Member
Originally Posted by D W K
I can replicate it now. In fact I took a brisk ride Saturday and had it Sump in 62 miles.
I have ridden this bike at times harder than I really wanted to in an effort to see if it will fail while under warranty. It takes everything it's been dealt without any issues whatsoever.
Everyone I know with an M8 or have met on the road is as happy as I am. My only experience with these issues are from this site and other internet sources.
It hard to swallow some do / some don't when they all are created equally. If you have a way to replicate your sumping issue please share. I'll gladly try whatever it is....within reason.
#42
09-10-2018, 12:10 AM
Grand HDF Member
On the other hand, some are dual-balancer 114's pushing a 650-lb bike, and those don't appear to never sump at all.
It's like there's a sumping formula for the percentage of bikes that may sump... start at zero %, and then add...
Touring bike? add 1%.
Wethead? add 4%
CVO? add 5%
Stage IV? Add 10%
Ride ***** to the wall for an hour or more at a time, getting the engine superheated? Add 15%. (or more, who knows, this may be the big one, maybe this should be 20 or 30 or 50, I don't know).
So assuming that the DWK has a 2017 Street Glide CVO that's not stage IV, he should have about an 10% chance of sumping. Unless he rides it at 5000+ RPM like a literbike, in which case it'd be a 25% chance (or, as said before, maybe even more).
On the other hand, if you or Webb have a regular Road King at Stage 1 or less, and drive it like a typical Harley touring bike rider would, your total sumping chance should be down around 1%.
Of course, these numbers are totally wild guesses, we don't know what the true numbers are, but ... I would risk $20 betting that they're at least somewhere in the ballpark.
If you have a way to replicate your sumping issue please share. I'll gladly try whatever it is....within reason.
Still haven't sorted out KeithHu's issue. Theoretically he should have a 1% chance, by my numbers, but he's sumped three engines in the same bike, using perfectly reasonable riding styles. My suspicion is that it has to be something outside the engine, maybe a plugged oil cooler that nobody ever managed to diagnose, or something equally bizarre. Of course it would be absurd if they've replaced three engines without ever checking if the oil cooler was even flowing, but ... at this point, absurd is probably where we'd have to start looking, because reasonable explanations don't work in that case.
As for the random sumpers, guys who never have had a problem and should be low-risk and then it eventually catches up to them over the course of 15,000 miles, while they do nothing different... I can only guess that those cases are related to engine wear... slightly looser tolerances here or there might increase the amount of blowby, or the oil cooler might have enough damaged fins it's not quite able to keep the oil as cool, or something else along those lines that eventually upsets the delicate balance inside the engine enough to push it over the edge into sumping territory. To me that's the scary situation, because that might very well happen outside of warranty.
But yeah, try to duplicate it if you want to, who knows, you might be able to and might get an updated engine out of it, and if yours was ever gonna sump, you'd definitely want to know about it now (under warranty) rather than later, right?
Last edited by FatBob2018; 09-10-2018 at 12:12 AM.
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#43
09-10-2018, 08:32 AM
I get it, it's real, that's not being debated....all I can relate it to is personal experience..wife an I bought our M8 107s 8/29/2016 and many others in our chapter have followed over these 2 years. We've ridden with many of them many times over 2 years, short trip, day trips, overnighters, week long rally trips, 10's of thousands of miles in all weather and speeds and road conditions, elevations, temperatures, etc. and we're always down at the dealership and talking with our Service techs, etc...if i even brought up the word 'sumping' and asked if anyone knew what it was they'd probably think I was talking about a septic tank repair. guess what I'm trying to say is in the 2 years been around M8s this is the ONLY place I've heard of it. So what's the actual rate of failure, how prevalent is it actually? I don't know..my personal experience around M8s with with sumping is Zero failure rate
Do you think HD issued SB1450 because just a few bikes had issues? Do you think they engineered 7 generations of oil pumps in 18 months because 1 or 2 bikes had sumping? Do you think that HD launched the 2019 M8s with a newly designed oil pump backing plate for the fun of it?
My friend, you’re riding around on a bike with a Gen 1 oil pump from 2016. You are at far greater risk of sumping than you know. It just takes the right riding conditions and circumstances to initiate sumping and a bike like yours has higher odds and a higher risk for sumping than M8s built later. Not as high a risk as a bigger displacement M8 or M8s with Stage kits, but your bike is DEFINITELY at risk for sumping. I certainly don’t wish for anyone to experience sumping but if it happens to you, please find remember you were forewarned.
Last edited by Heatwave; 09-10-2018 at 08:48 AM.
#44
09-10-2018, 09:04 AM
Seasoned HDF Member
And my personal experience with a 2017 CVO Limited bought 10/30/16 is 3 separate engines that sumped and failed. 1st engine failed at 5500miles. 2nd engine failed after 500miles. 3rd engine failed from sumping after another 2500miles. All were stage IV engines installed by dealership using all HD parts. Replacement engines were covered under warranty. 4th engine is good. Anyone suggesting that sumping is not a “real” issue with a higher incidence of major engine failure than any other major defect in Harley motorcycle history is simply a fool and blind fanboy.
Do you think HD issued SB1450 because just a few bikes had issues? Do you think they engineered 7 generations of oil pumps in 18 months because 1 or 2 bikes had sumping? Do you think that HD launched the 2019 M8s with a newly designed oil pump backing plate for the fun of it?
My friend, you’re riding around on a bike with a Gen 1 oil pump from 2016. You are at far greater risk of sumping than you know. It just takes the right riding conditions and circumstances to initiate sumping and a bike like yours has higher odds and a higher risk for sumping than M8s built later. Not as high a risk as a bigger displacement M8 or M8s with Stage kits, but your bike is DEFINITELY at risk for sumping. I certainly don’t wish for anyone to experience sumping but if it happens to you, please find remember you were forewarned.
#45
09-10-2018, 10:29 AM
dude, I know all about you Keith and others, and SB1450 and that it's not a Unicorn or Sasquatch, duh.....all I tried to convey is my personal experience with M8s over 2 years in our circle of many bikes and many miles..as far as "but if it happens to you, please remember you were forewarned."..what am I supposed to do about it proactively other than keep riding and servicing it......oh well, off to Idaho for 1500 mile road trip to meet up with a couple of friends with M8 107s that have about 50K trouble free miles so far..sure it could happen, but we'll try and continue to enjoy them until we can't I can't I guess..if any of us experience sumping I will definitely report here and be a another pissed off owner as well
I definitely agree that sumping is definitely the exception not the rule for M8s. But it's still far more prevalent that any other catastrophic engine failure I can remember coming out of a Harley factory in over 40 years. I think bike's that are built further away from the initial M8 launch have a better chance of avoiding sumping over time. It still pisses me off how much down time and frustration I experienced with my engine failures. I certainly hope the new 2019 shows absolutely NO signs of sumping. Unfortunately we won't know if they have corrected the design until next Spring or summer. But if we have no reports of sumping from 2019s this Fall, that will certainly be a good sign.
I didn't mean to come across harshly. You are one of the better guys to hear from. Wishing you the best for your trip to Idaho.
#46
09-10-2018, 10:43 PM
What do you have to do to replicate? What is a brisk ride for you? I am not doubting your issue. But I am in the same boat as Mjwebb. I have put over 14k miles on my 2018, Stage 1 Road King in just 20 days shy of a year.
I have ridden this bike at times harder than I really wanted to in an effort to see if it will fail while under warranty. It takes everything it's been dealt without any issues whatsoever.
Everyone I know with an M8 or have met on the road is as happy as I am. My only experience with these issues are from this site and other internet sources.
It hard to swallow some do / some don't when they all are created equally. If you have a way to replicate your sumping issue please share. I'll gladly try whatever it is....within reason.
I have ridden this bike at times harder than I really wanted to in an effort to see if it will fail while under warranty. It takes everything it's been dealt without any issues whatsoever.
Everyone I know with an M8 or have met on the road is as happy as I am. My only experience with these issues are from this site and other internet sources.
It hard to swallow some do / some don't when they all are created equally. If you have a way to replicate your sumping issue please share. I'll gladly try whatever it is....within reason.
#47
09-10-2018, 11:25 PM
Outstanding HDF Member
Originally Posted by D W K
I believe there is a correlation of mine being a CVO 114 wet head and the sumping issues. Now for me to replicate it, i ride a stretch of twisty road for 31 miles one way and then back in 100 deg temps. This is on and off the gas fairly hard.I ride it within the designed perimeters but hard enough to get it really hot. It shows signs of sumping at about 45 miles if I am alone and sooner if wife is on the back. Now mind you this has all come up recently and once done, it is progressively getting worse or at least easier to replicate. I had hoped the new oil pump and rockers was enough to fix it but as soon as I got it back and made a ride in 80 degree temps and smelled burning oil, I knew it wasnt. Now lets be honest, I truly hoped the dealers "fix" would be the answer, however the time it sumped before repairs, the motor flat stopped from melting the crank sensor and shutting down. I believe the motor was seriously hurt that time and the pump replacement was a bandaid. I will state again, I hope you don't experience sumping because I have a 35k bike I dont trust more than 200 miles from home.
#48
09-10-2018, 11:37 PM
They're not all created equally. Some are single-balancer twin-cooled wetheads pushing a 950-lb bike with a 107 engine, and those sump more than others. Especially if it's a CVO, and doubly especially if it's upgraded to Stage IV.
On the other hand, some are dual-balancer 114's pushing a 650-lb bike, and those don't appear to never sump at all.
It's like there's a sumping formula for the percentage of bikes that may sump... start at zero %, and then add...
Touring bike? add 1%.
Wethead? add 4%
CVO? add 5%
Stage IV? Add 10%
Ride ***** to the wall for an hour or more at a time, getting the engine superheated? Add 15%. (or more, who knows, this may be the big one, maybe this should be 20 or 30 or 50, I don't know).
So assuming that the DWK has a 2017 Street Glide CVO that's not stage IV, he should have about an 10% chance of sumping. Unless he rides it at 5000+ RPM like a literbike, in which case it'd be a 25% chance (or, as said before, maybe even more).
On the other hand, if you or Webb have a regular Road King at Stage 1 or less, and drive it like a typical Harley touring bike rider would, your total sumping chance should be down around 1%.
Of course, these numbers are totally wild guesses, we don't know what the true numbers are, but ... I would risk $20 betting that they're at least somewhere in the ballpark.
Even if you duplicate his exact riding scenario, your bike will likely be less prone to sumping because it's not a wethead CVO. And that appears to make a difference, CVOs are much more frequently reported to sump, especially given that they're much more expensive and a limited edition so there should be far fewer of them on the road. I mean, you might get yours to sump following his or Heatwave's formulas, but don't be surprised if it doesn't, because your bike's engine isn't the same as theirs and whatever differences there are (117 vs 107, or wethead vs oil cooler, or softail dual-balancer crankcase vs touring single-balancer crankcase), might contribute to the magic recipe that makes one bike sump but makes another one not.
Still haven't sorted out KeithHu's issue. Theoretically he should have a 1% chance, by my numbers, but he's sumped three engines in the same bike, using perfectly reasonable riding styles. My suspicion is that it has to be something outside the engine, maybe a plugged oil cooler that nobody ever managed to diagnose, or something equally bizarre. Of course it would be absurd if they've replaced three engines without ever checking if the oil cooler was even flowing, but ... at this point, absurd is probably where we'd have to start looking, because reasonable explanations don't work in that case.
As for the random sumpers, guys who never have had a problem and should be low-risk and then it eventually catches up to them over the course of 15,000 miles, while they do nothing different... I can only guess that those cases are related to engine wear... slightly looser tolerances here or there might increase the amount of blowby, or the oil cooler might have enough damaged fins it's not quite able to keep the oil as cool, or something else along those lines that eventually upsets the delicate balance inside the engine enough to push it over the edge into sumping territory. To me that's the scary situation, because that might very well happen outside of warranty.
But yeah, try to duplicate it if you want to, who knows, you might be able to and might get an updated engine out of it, and if yours was ever gonna sump, you'd definitely want to know about it now (under warranty) rather than later, right?
On the other hand, some are dual-balancer 114's pushing a 650-lb bike, and those don't appear to never sump at all.
It's like there's a sumping formula for the percentage of bikes that may sump... start at zero %, and then add...
Touring bike? add 1%.
Wethead? add 4%
CVO? add 5%
Stage IV? Add 10%
Ride ***** to the wall for an hour or more at a time, getting the engine superheated? Add 15%. (or more, who knows, this may be the big one, maybe this should be 20 or 30 or 50, I don't know).
So assuming that the DWK has a 2017 Street Glide CVO that's not stage IV, he should have about an 10% chance of sumping. Unless he rides it at 5000+ RPM like a literbike, in which case it'd be a 25% chance (or, as said before, maybe even more).
On the other hand, if you or Webb have a regular Road King at Stage 1 or less, and drive it like a typical Harley touring bike rider would, your total sumping chance should be down around 1%.
Of course, these numbers are totally wild guesses, we don't know what the true numbers are, but ... I would risk $20 betting that they're at least somewhere in the ballpark.
Even if you duplicate his exact riding scenario, your bike will likely be less prone to sumping because it's not a wethead CVO. And that appears to make a difference, CVOs are much more frequently reported to sump, especially given that they're much more expensive and a limited edition so there should be far fewer of them on the road. I mean, you might get yours to sump following his or Heatwave's formulas, but don't be surprised if it doesn't, because your bike's engine isn't the same as theirs and whatever differences there are (117 vs 107, or wethead vs oil cooler, or softail dual-balancer crankcase vs touring single-balancer crankcase), might contribute to the magic recipe that makes one bike sump but makes another one not.
Still haven't sorted out KeithHu's issue. Theoretically he should have a 1% chance, by my numbers, but he's sumped three engines in the same bike, using perfectly reasonable riding styles. My suspicion is that it has to be something outside the engine, maybe a plugged oil cooler that nobody ever managed to diagnose, or something equally bizarre. Of course it would be absurd if they've replaced three engines without ever checking if the oil cooler was even flowing, but ... at this point, absurd is probably where we'd have to start looking, because reasonable explanations don't work in that case.
As for the random sumpers, guys who never have had a problem and should be low-risk and then it eventually catches up to them over the course of 15,000 miles, while they do nothing different... I can only guess that those cases are related to engine wear... slightly looser tolerances here or there might increase the amount of blowby, or the oil cooler might have enough damaged fins it's not quite able to keep the oil as cool, or something else along those lines that eventually upsets the delicate balance inside the engine enough to push it over the edge into sumping territory. To me that's the scary situation, because that might very well happen outside of warranty.
But yeah, try to duplicate it if you want to, who knows, you might be able to and might get an updated engine out of it, and if yours was ever gonna sump, you'd definitely want to know about it now (under warranty) rather than later, right?
Bit long winded
... But very well said.
#49
09-10-2018, 11:49 PM
Good news is my dealer helped me minimize my loss, bypass the warranty repair bs and got me into a late build 18 that, other than a little noise from the compensator area, has so far run outstanding.
#50
09-11-2018, 12:00 AM
This sumping issue reminds me of Harley of old. Back in the 90's I was at a friends engine building shop. His shop did warranty work for the Harley dealer during a period when oil was not draining down from the heads. He still had the tooling he used to open up the oil return passages under contract for Harley.