Yet we have several guys who have sumped their engines in 500 miles or less. These are engines with practically no wear on them yet.

Steve gave me the final clue I needed, that it really is riding style that's causing it to happen. Fortunately for us, riding style is the one thing we have control over, it's the one thing we can change about the situation. I applaud Steve's work and look forward to any more discoveries he may make in this situation.

 

I would recommend that you avoid percentages such as those you stated unless you have some source for the statistic. I do not have any data to suggest HD designed their engine for anything less than 100% of the riders that are out there when the engine is operating within the parameters of their owner's manual. Anything less is a design defect that their design and engineering department would have never intended.

 

If my riding style is somehow responsible for sumping, then the MoCo is in serious trouble.

 

So he is trying to say the MoCo purposely built bikes for the RUBS and bar hoppers. For some reason i dont believe this or the MoCo would not be in business. Every manufacture strives for 100 percent success rate. We should not have to worry or change our riding style for 20k plus bike to perform

 

Um... I'm pretty sure he stated that Badcooky's HD rep was his source. So all good now?

Probably not.

 

So lets just dispel the notion that "riding hard" is responsible for sumping. Its not. My only crime was doing 75 on the highway. Thats why I say if my riding style is to blame for sumping the Moco is in serious trouble.

 

A quick update. I took the bike out for a "crisp" higher rpm ride up through lots of mountainous (for NW Jersey) roads. 94 degrees outside. The ride was about 60 miles. No highways, just tons of twisties that really gave the bike a workout over 90 mins. This engine is a blast. I was riding to my dealer (the long way) to get new rubber (Michelin Commander IIs) and an oil change (Syn3) before hitting the road to Americade (NY/VT) for probably another 600-800 mile long weekend. I should really know the status of this #4 engine after I return mid next week.

By the time I got to the dealer this afternoon, the engine was definitely HOT and breaking a sweat but still running terrific. I asked the service rep that knows my bike well if he would do the sumping check while it was hot. He said he was as interested to find out as I was. After pulling the CKP sensor, there was 1 or possibly 2 ounces in the engine case. Given how hard I had just run the engine, I was surprised it didn't have more but pleased with the results. Time for new oil, new rubber and another great ride this weekend.

Lots of riding in June. Including Laconia BikeWeek (NH) and a ride through the Alps at the end of June on a guided trip through Germany/Austria to Prague, Czech Republic for the HD 115th Euro Celebration. But that will be on a rented 2018 Ultra Limited. Let's hope my rental doesn't sump!!

 

I stated the source that I had, which is that Badcooky reported that HD Australia told his dealer, on a speakerphone call that Badcooky was present for, that 1.2% of the 2017's had sumped, and none of the 2018's (at that time). I'm not saying that's definitively accurate, I'm saying that that's all we've heard from any source, as far as I know, and it could be considered hearsay. There is, as far as we know, no definitive statement from Harley. I thought I properly attributed the 1.2% to Badcooky's dealer's australian rep, as reported by Badcooky...

Well, first, I agree with you in theory. That is the way it should be. But the reality doesn't seem to support that, and I say that because of the numerous revisions to the SB1450 letter. Initially it was "only Stage III and Stage IV". Then they modified it to include all M8s. Initially they said if you found, what, 3 ounces, it was considered sumping. Then they changed it to read six. I thought somebody said it was up even higher on the latest bulletin?

This tells me Harley is redefining "normal". Just like they had a service bulletin telling people it's "normal" to burn through a full quart of oil every 1,000 miles (which, IINM, someone said that it's been updated to read one quart per 1,500 miles is now acceptable).

So it's possible that the engineers never intended it to be what it is. Yet, Harley is redefining normal to say "this new standard is normal", potentially regardless of what the engineers intended.

I would certainly consider it a defect. And I would most certainly consider that those who spent the most money (Stage IV upgraders and CVO owners) should be at the most freedom to use their engines to their full potential. Yet, the reality on the ground is, it appears that those who use their engines the hardest, are the ones who get hit most frequently with sumping.

 

 

Depends. You've said earlier you're cruising freeways. My question is -- for how long, at what RPM? If you're on for a lengthy period of time, with oil accumulating the whole time, and no breaks for it to flush that oil back where it belongs, then yes, I can see sumping happening then. I am absolutely not okay with that -- I think that's atrocious. But I also think that's probably why it's happening. And at this point, I just want to know what causes it and what avoids it.

As to whether the MoCo is in trouble or not, that's a different discussion.