Time for the 4th engine in my 2017 CVO Limited... here we go again!
#131
05-28-2018, 05:36 PM
Each part in the assemble has a tolerance that they are made to be within. So let's think about the crankshaft, they are suppose to be round but as we all know MoCo says as long as they are not 0.014" out of round that's OK, when the original specification was over 0.003" and it was bad. Same goes for rods, cylinders, pistons ect. So you can get variations that are within the limits that MoCo has now said is OK but as we all know that doesn't mean much to them. When they start running out of range they just move the specification to cover it up!. Look at sumping, the first bulletin said over 3 oz of oil drained and there is a problem with the engine, the latest bulletin now says over 12 oz before it's an issue. This is the kind of BS that is bring these problems on them. Had they found and solve the issue in the beginning there would have been no reason to change the specification to 12 oz. today and only god knows what it maybe tomorrow!
If Heatwave is to believe the MoCo did something special for him they could have just picked parts that met the original M8 specifications (not what they let slide by) and then assembled the engine with those parts to see if it solves the problem. We will never know unless it fails again or he takes it apart to see if anything is really changed.
If Heatwave is to believe the MoCo did something special for him they could have just picked parts that met the original M8 specifications (not what they let slide by) and then assembled the engine with those parts to see if it solves the problem. We will never know unless it fails again or he takes it apart to see if anything is really changed.
As I’ve also stated I have no clue what changes, if any, were made internally to the case of my new engine. And to be honest I really don’t care after dealing with 3 prior engines that sumped. I’ll let others debate what the codes mean, which is why I shared them. All I know is the performance of this engine is everything I ever hoped for out of a Factory HD Stage IV 117 engine, and it turned out to be even MORE than I expected
I’ll leave it to you and the other experts to debate things like “what model yr is it?”. “What do the codes mean?” “What changes did they make internally”? Personally I will not be surprised if the engine case # on the bottom of my engine is the same as the one on new 2019s, but obviously I could be very wrong.
At this point the answer to those questions above are simply irrelevant to me. I’ve tried to be helpful to others dealing with sumping in their 2017 and 2018 M8 engines by sharing these FACTS.
- my 4th engine was built at the Pilgrim Rd facility as a factory built Stage IV 117 engine. Since I’m not aware of any other M8 Stage IV engine that was built at the factory, I’ll let others decide how or whether that qualifies as “special”
- my dealer stated the engine was a 2019
- the lower right engine code is 1941803116 and I posted a picture of it.
- the case number stamped on both halves of the engine case is 13708454 and I posted a picture of it.
- neither one of these engine numbers have any correlation to any sequence of the #s in my VIN
- the performance of this engine is spectacular after 850 miles, in which the last 400 miles were definitely challenged on the highway, backroads and in high heat conditions that made my prior 3 117 Stage IV engines sump easily.
Hopefully the information I shared is helpful. Good luck to anyone that has experienced sumping as after 4 engines being installed in my bike, I fully appreciate the frustration you’re experiencing. But if my experience is an early signal, HD has finally solved the issue. To the naysayers, well..... I have nothing to say to you. To my dealer...... I say thank you for standing by me. To HD ..... I say thank you for your persistance in resolving my engine issues without giving up and finally delivering an outstanding engine. BRAVO!!! Now help out all the other 17/18 M8 bike owners that are dealing with sumping and you’ll be back on track with the M8 engine design.
Last edited by Heatwave; 05-28-2018 at 06:15 PM.
The following 4 users liked this post by Heatwave:
#132
05-28-2018, 06:25 PM
Cruiser
As I stated, the dealer claimed it was a 2019 engine. And the lower right engine code started with 19. I also shared that other knowledgeable people (Non-HD) also do NOT believe its a 2019 but the part # on my engine case does not show up on any parts catalog. So your guess is as good as mine but its definitely more likely than not that the part # I posted is for a new engine case, just my opinion without any supporting facts.
As I’ve also stated I have no clue what changes, if any, were made internally to the case of my new engine. And to be honest I really don’t care after dealing with 3 prior engines that sumped. I’ll let others debate what the codes mean, which is why I shared them. All I know is the performance of this engine is everything I ever hoped for out of a Factory HD Stage IV 117 engine, and it turned out to be even MORE than I expected
I’ll leave it to you and the other experts to debate things like “what model yr is it?”. “What do the codes mean?” “What changes did they make internally”? Personally I will not be surprised if the engine case # on the bottom of my engine is the same as the one on new 2019s, but obviously I could be very wrong.
At this point the answer to those questions above are simply irrelevant to me. I’ve tried to be helpful to others dealing with sumping in their 2017 and 2018 M8 engines by sharing these FACTS.
- my 4th engine was built at the Pilgrim Rd facility as a factory built Stage IV 117 engine. Since I’m not aware of any other M8 Stage IV engine that was built at the factory, I’ll let others decide how or whether that qualifies as “special”
- my dealer stated the engine was a 2019
- the lower right engine code is 1941803116 and I posted a picture of it.
- the case number stamped on both halves of the engine case is 13708454 and I posted a picture of it.
- neither one of these engine numbers have any correlation to any sequence of the #s in my VIN
- the performance of this engine is spectacular after 850 miles, in which the last 400 miles were definitely challenged on the highway, backroads and in high heat conditions that made my prior 3 117 Stage IV engines sump easily.
Hopefully the information I shared is helpful. Good luck to anyone that has experienced sumping as after 4 engines being installed in my bike, I fully appreciate the frustration you’re experiencing. But if my experience is an early signal, HD has finally solved the issue. To the naysayers, well..... I have nothing to say to you. To my dealer...... I say thank you for standing by me. To HD ..... I say thank you for your persistance in resolving my engine issues without giving up and finally delivering an outstanding engine. BRAVO!!! Now help out all the other 17/18 M8 bike owners that are dealing with sumping and you’ll be back on track with the M8 engine design.
Many of us appreciate you taking the time to let us know what you have gone through.
#133
05-28-2018, 06:48 PM
Seasoned HDF Member
As I stated, the dealer claimed it was a 2019 engine. And the lower right engine code started with 19. I also shared that other knowledgeable people (Non-HD) also do NOT believe its a 2019 but the part # on my engine case does not show up on any parts catalog. So your guess is as good as mine but its definitely more likely than not that the part # I posted is for a new engine case, just my opinion without any supporting facts.
As I’ve also stated I have no clue what changes, if any, were made internally to the case of my new engine. And to be honest I really don’t care after dealing with 3 prior engines that sumped. I’ll let others debate what the codes mean, which is why I shared them. All I know is the performance of this engine is everything I ever hoped for out of a Factory HD Stage IV 117 engine, and it turned out to be even MORE than I expected
I’ll leave it to you and the other experts to debate things like “what model yr is it?”. “What do the codes mean?” “What changes did they make internally”? Personally I will not be surprised if the engine case # on the bottom of my engine is the same as the one on new 2019s, but obviously I could be very wrong.
At this point the answer to those questions above are simply irrelevant to me. I’ve tried to be helpful to others dealing with sumping in their 2017 and 2018 M8 engines by sharing these FACTS.
- my 4th engine was built at the Pilgrim Rd facility as a factory built Stage IV 117 engine. Since I’m not aware of any other M8 Stage IV engine that was built at the factory, I’ll let others decide how or whether that qualifies as “special”
- my dealer stated the engine was a 2019
- the lower right engine code is 1941803116 and I posted a picture of it.
- the case number stamped on both halves of the engine case is 13708454 and I posted a picture of it.
- neither one of these engine numbers have any correlation to any sequence of the #s in my VIN
- the performance of this engine is spectacular after 850 miles, in which the last 400 miles were definitely challenged on the highway, backroads and in high heat conditions that made my prior 3 117 Stage IV engines sump easily.
Hopefully the information I shared is helpful. Good luck to anyone that has experienced sumping as after 4 engines being installed in my bike, I fully appreciate the frustration you’re experiencing. But if my experience is an early signal, HD has finally solved the issue. To the naysayers, well..... I have nothing to say to you. To my dealer...... I say thank you for standing by me. To HD ..... I say thank you for your persistance in resolving my engine issues without giving up and finally delivering an outstanding engine. BRAVO!!! Now help out all the other 17/18 M8 bike owners that are dealing with sumping and you’ll be back on track with the M8 engine design.
1. the motor was built on the same line as current production which is gearing up for 2019 release or at least in the same area. They don't make a few thousand of the next model year instantly. So you got a 19 date code.
2. I don't think anyone knows if it was special but it would have been nice to know if the motor was run at the factory. Assuming that it was broken in it likely was run on a dyno at that time there would have known if it sumped.
3. the 19 is partly a date code I would guess. Not sure if the means anything changed. More than likely the rest of the number reflects the "as built" Also it won't show up in any catalog.
4. the numbers on the case halves are not a part number. They are more than likely a production serial number. Very common thing to do. It won't show up in any catalog. It will likely show up in HDs material tracking system. Something that usually only manufacturing / QA / test and possibly field engineers can reference.
5. Neither of those numbers have anything to with serial number at the top assembly.(motor). I think we agree on that.
6. Glad that the motor is working well for you. Hope the combination that worked will transfer easily to other guys having issues. One would hope that the change is repeatable on other bikes having the issue.
7. It may simply be that they ran the motor on the dyno and swapped ot experimented with parts until the motor stopped sumping and they still don't have the issue completely solved.
,
#134
05-28-2018, 06:59 PM
I think that there is quite a bit that you are missing.
1. the motor was built on the same line as current production which is gearing up for 2019 release or at least in the same area. They don't make a few thousand of the next model year instantly. So you got a 19 date code.
2. I don't think anyone knows if it was special but it would have been nice to know if the motor was run at the factory. Assuming that it was broken in it likely was run on a dyno at that time there would have known if it sumped.
3. the 19 is partly a date code I would guess. Not sure if the means anything changed. More than likely the rest of the number reflects the "as built" Also it won't show up in any catalog.
4. the numbers on the case halves are not a part number. They are more than likely a production serial number. Very common thing to do. It won't show up in any catalog. It will likely show up in HDs material tracking system. Something that usually only manufacturing / QA / test and possibly field engineers can reference.
5. Neither of those numbers have anything to with serial number at the top assembly.(motor). I think we agree on that.
6. Glad that the motor is working well for you. Hope the combination that worked will transfer easily to other guys having issues. One would hope that the change is repeatable on other bikes having the issue.
7. It may simply be that they ran the motor on the dyno and swapped ot experimented with parts until the motor stopped sumping and they still don't have the issue completely solved.
1. the motor was built on the same line as current production which is gearing up for 2019 release or at least in the same area. They don't make a few thousand of the next model year instantly. So you got a 19 date code.
2. I don't think anyone knows if it was special but it would have been nice to know if the motor was run at the factory. Assuming that it was broken in it likely was run on a dyno at that time there would have known if it sumped.
3. the 19 is partly a date code I would guess. Not sure if the means anything changed. More than likely the rest of the number reflects the "as built" Also it won't show up in any catalog.
4. the numbers on the case halves are not a part number. They are more than likely a production serial number. Very common thing to do. It won't show up in any catalog. It will likely show up in HDs material tracking system. Something that usually only manufacturing / QA / test and possibly field engineers can reference.
5. Neither of those numbers have anything to with serial number at the top assembly.(motor). I think we agree on that.
6. Glad that the motor is working well for you. Hope the combination that worked will transfer easily to other guys having issues. One would hope that the change is repeatable on other bikes having the issue.
7. It may simply be that they ran the motor on the dyno and swapped ot experimented with parts until the motor stopped sumping and they still don't have the issue completely solved.
2) the engine was definitely run at the factory because all components were on the engine that are normally not included when a crate engine is shipped to a dealer. Such as injectors, spark plugs, TB, fuel/oil/coolant lines. The fuel line on my engine still had leftover fuel in it, so the engine was definitely run at the factory.
3) I don’t know but you could be correct
4) I have no way to know one way or another however most recent HD part numbers have 8 digits and so does this case #.
5) Agreed
6) Thanks, I hope so too.
7) Anything is possible
Last edited by Heatwave; 05-28-2018 at 07:00 PM.
#135
05-28-2018, 07:09 PM
Grand HDF Member
That's highly important data. Can you describe what the sumping rider did differently that caused it to happen?
#136
05-28-2018, 07:23 PM
My riding style is no different then the way I ride my other motorcycle (2010 CVO Ultra) or any other motorcycle I’ve ridden over 50years. Simply stated... my riding style is safely but occasionally squeezing every bit of performance the engine can deliver under public roadway conditions.
Last edited by Heatwave; 05-28-2018 at 07:25 PM.
#137
05-28-2018, 07:57 PM
Seasoned HDF Member
1) That’s my opinion too.
2) the engine was definitely run at the factory because all components were on the engine that are normally not included when a crate engine is shipped to a dealer. Such as injectors, spark plugs, TB, fuel/oil/coolant lines. The fuel line on my engine still had leftover fuel in it, so the engine was definitely run at the factory.
3) I don’t know but you could be correct
4) I have no way to know one way or another however most recent HD part numbers have 8 digits and so does this case #.
5) Agreed
6) Thanks, I hope so too.
7) Anything is possible
4. If the number on the cases was a MPN it would have started with 24400XXX. Go look at the MPNs for cases on the other bikes like the softails and streets. They all start with 244001.
7. Based on the #2 I'd say it's at/near the top of the list..
#139
05-28-2018, 08:08 PM
Seasoned HDF Member
While the performance results of an engine wih multiple riders and a single engine is helpful, I think the performance results of a single rider with multiple engines is of even greater value, at least from my perspective as the single rider. My riding style after normal breakin caused sumping in 3 consecutive identical engines. And in the 4th identical engine, it no longer causes sumping (or at least hasn’t in 850 miles).
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Just kidding..
Don't buy a lotto ticket, It's pretty much guaranteed that you wont win..
#140
05-28-2018, 08:26 PM
HD EFI Guru
Currently have another engine running with some different internal modifications, in a different bike. This customer has been through 2 engines and gave up on the MoCo. He currently has over 1500 miles of trouble free operation and in his words "I've been trying everything I know to make it screw up and it just keeps running fantastic!" He is now out on a cross country ride and will let us know if anything happens but says he will be back in about 3 weeks and expects to have another 5 - 6 thousand miles on it. So time and miles will let us know how it does. If that all goes well, we will know exactly what was done different in the two engines. This information should help narrow down the cause. For the record both of these engines have the same MoCo oil pumps in them too. One thing that has always gotten me is we have a fully built 120 cu in, with the very first release (July 2016 build date) oil pump in it with 2 seasons on it and it's never sumped and I can assure you that people have ridden it hard and tried there best to make it sump.
Why did it run great for the first 1000 miles?
Why did it start to sump lightly at 1200 miles?
Why does it not sump with a different rider?
Why does the original test bike with the 120 not sump after two season of riding?
How will the second bike hold up after miles accumulate on it?
All these questions are not answered but we do know the cylinder leakage increase from 3-4% when engine first went out, to 10 - 11% when the rider first felt like it was sumping. MoCo claims that anything under 23% is acceptable for a M8.
Heatwave is on engine 4 now, will it hold up, for his sake I hope so. All I can say for sure is there is an issue with the M8 engine and riding style plays into it how soon it happens. The root cause is not as of yet found but getting closer. IMHO the oil pump is not the cause.
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